How do you figure? Our subways are almost at capacity as it is. I don't think water and sewage has been upgraded enough to carry twice the load expected of it now. So how is it you came up with the twice as many figure? The current lack of investment along with our growing population is already a worry, and we won't be doubling our numbers anytime soon.

That's Malthusian thinking there. If population doubles, it doubles. The old city of Toronto can definitely take a population doubling or two and still be alright. Inevitable new streetcars and a DRL would make up for the increased population, as more votes reside downtown.
 
Being a relatively big ciy, we don't even have one single real super tall buildings, our downtown core and its perepheral is filled with large surface parking lots and old low rise characterless cookie cut houses, yet many are already worry so much about "height". What height? Toronto has few tall buildings so far.
OK, this is ridiculous.

Toronto has more buildings >200m than Los Angeles, Mexico City, London, Paris, Berlin, Moscow, Tokyo, Singapore and Sydney. By your height-obsessed standards, all of these cities must be below B+, then.

Toronto is far from perfect. There are plenty of areas where we don't match the best the rest of the world has to offer. But claiming that we don't have enough overtly tall buildings to qualify for the A-leagues just outs you as the worst sort of uninformed supertall drooler.
 
Being a relatively big ciy, we don't even have one single real super tall buildings, our downtown core and its perepheral is filled with large surface parking lots and old low rise characterless cookie cut houses, yet many are already worry so much about "height". What height? Toronto has few tall buildings so far. Downtown can be a lot taller and can easily accomodate twice the number of high rise buildings and people.

There are 150 tall buildings under construction right now, and 150 more in the design phase. In what universe is this a city which eschews height? To build supertalls, you have to have an ego so large that you will throw away money. They don't make financial sense. Period. The supertalls being built anywhere but a few locations have NEVER made money, and certainly didn't in NYC when they were built. Mere icons to their owners. And Canadians aren't like that - at least not usually, we DID build the CN tower - largest structure for almost 30 years. All of our parking lots will be developed in due time. The "cookie cutter" houses are absolutely full of charm and character, so they should mostly stay put - but yes, I can't wait for more people to move downtown and for all of our parking lots to be developed.

For those who ask others to move to XXX, may I ask if you like "tree lined streets with all the low density victorian houses", which you think are so charming, why don't yourself move to Hamilton, Barrie, Oshawa etc, seems those places are perfect for you and will have no chance to turning into a NYC or Chicago you loathe so much.

No one here hates NYC or Chicago, never have. However, Toronto has never had the poverty or lack of livability issues that both cities have dealt with. We do loathe those. So when income disparity reaches levels where monuments to wealth - ie supertalls - become the norm, ghettos inevitably accompany them. All the wealth has to be concentrated for extensive supertall construction - not that it bothers Asia or America - or Dubai, which actually BANKRUPTED itself building its atrocious buildings.

But if Toronto's economics can handle a supertall, I am all for it.

Toronto is truly a B+ city at present from a global perspective, and because of the inertia and backwardness mentioned, probably will never become a A city despite its strength.

Yeah, Toronto is B+. It is a former industrial haven, a workingperson's town - unlike Shanghai, Beijing, NYC, Paris, or London - cities whose financial sectors preyed on the rest of the country like vampires. The money siphoned off by the elite builds great cities. Since we have never done as much of that here, we don't have the perfect gentrified palace that the greedy elite have always wanted. On the other hand, as Toronto shifts away from industry and becomes what Montreal used to be to Canada, our city is becoming more and more like those globally elite cities.

Too many are always satisfied with how things are and are fearful any changes. The Gardiner should stay, our Harbourfront Center is fantastic, the Redpath Refinery is an icon, don't build a bridge to the Islands (which needs no improvement either), our streetcar system works (even the tokens are nice!), all those hideous rundown houses on Dundas, Queen, Spadina and Yonge are "historic" and should never be replaced, so on and so forth.

Here I would absolutely agree with you here. But most of it has to do with tax money, not ambition. Miller wanted to bury the gardiner, but it costs multibillions. I would love to see harbourfront gone, but you have to get the private owners to sell - we can't force people to do things here, nor should we. Likewise with Redpath. The streetcars will be better as the new cars arrive, and I would go out on a limb to say that I like the tokens but prefer to see them in a museum, while it is the TTC union that slows development in transit, plus a lack of funding from government.

But don't you dare touch most of the houses on King or Queen or Spadina. The majority are beautiful and should be renovated, nothing more. What else will make our city unique? Here I fundamentally disagree with you and anyone who would disgrace our heritage for a quick fix that only lasts a few years until the next building looks old and dilapidated.

A 300 or 400 meter building is not gonna ruin Toronto, folks. If you can't handle that, it is still not too late to move to Barrie!

I guarantee you that most would love to see a supertall in an appropriate location, but one supertall doesn't make a city (or else you would love Toronto for the CN tower). But obviously, most of the best cities in the world have nothing like a supertall, and they don't need one. Many seem to think a phallic symbol will make everyone notice them and love their city. Vienna, Sydney, Vancouver, Stockholm, Copenhagen, etc. etc. etc. are all the best cities in the world to live in - maybe not to look at from afar, but to actually be in. A small scale built form of 6 to 10 storeys is the ideal for human life to flourish. Some districts can be taller, sure, but overall that is my perspective. The worst of Toronto's development has occurred precisely because we thought only height mattered - not the opposite.
 
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Yeah, Toronto is B+. It is a former industrial haven, a workingperson's town - unlike Shanghai, Beijing, NYC, Paris, or London - cities whose financial sectors preyed on the rest of the country like vampires. The money siphoned off by the elite builds great cities. Since we have never done as much of that here, we don't have the perfect gentrified palace that the greedy elite have always wanted. On the other hand, as Toronto shifts away from industry, our city is becoming more and more like those globally elite cities.

OK, this is one of my favourite comments on this forum so far. Very insightful.
I agree with you all those elite cities look fantastic at the very high cost of other areas been gauged and suppressed. Maybe less so for NYC? I am not sure. Toronto IS very different from all of them
 
I would love to see a supertall at One Yonge. Ideal spot for one. But, if it came to choice, I'd rather see every stripmall in the inner suburbs replaced with a mixed use, 6s -10s, lowrise. Would make for a much more livable city. Maybe someday we'll have both.
 
Ideally, for me, I would like to see low to mid rise development (<12 storeys) throughout our avenues (I'm not going to list which ones they are :)) and have the downtown area (from Jarvis to Spadina and the lake to Bloor) mostly high-rise, barring, of course, key heritage buildings, etc. like on Yonge. However, that being said, developments that are scaled back (like 5ive) would be nice just off of Yonge north of Dundas upto Bloor.

I personally don't know why there are height restrictions in the Entertainment district...it's too bad we're seeing so many 40 storey developments there - in a few years, that part of town will have a flatline skyline (like Vancouver's). I also hope to see more high-rise developments east of Yonge upto Jarvis barring the historic St. Lawrence and Distillery districts.

Finally, I hope new developments in the downtown area will never be grey or near grey spandrel-heavy boxes! :)

Back on topic, now! :)
 
No, I do like the positive sentiment of the previous two posts. I guess Kkgg7's posts often put me in a negative mood. I would like to hear more of how people believe the city should be changed for the better - including kkgg7. Because at the end of the day that is how a better city will be built. So, kkgg, what do you believe should be done about things like the streetcar, or how do you think we can pay for an improvement many would surely like - such as burying the Gardiner?
 
No, I do like the positive sentiment of the previous two posts. I guess Kkgg7's posts often put me in a negative mood. I would like to hear more of how people believe the city should be changed for the better - including kkgg7. Because at the end of the day that is how a better city will be built. So, kkgg, what do you believe should be done about things like the streetcar, or how do you think we can pay for an improvement many would surely like - such as burying the Gardiner?

I don't think I am any different from the previous two posters. Actually what city_lover mentioned is exactly what I have in mind for Toronto, where the core from Jarvis to Spadina is dominated by 20-80 storey skyscrapers, while other parts of the city is mostly regular mid-high rises 6-20 stories. I, however, hate the idea of "preserving" all those 2 or 3 stories old houses (most of which don't really have much special value) within the downtown core, for example, along Yonge st, Queen St, Dundas st etc. Some say it is "charming" or "different" from other cities, I say it is such a huge waste of space. Downtown should be compact, highly dense and it is definitely not the place for 2 storey houses.

I live in downtown and I do take the streetcars from time to time, particularly during weekends (I walk to work under PATH). One frustrating thing is its frequency and speed. I think there are way too many stops. For example, one stop at Yonge, at Bay and Victoria street, respectively, what's the point? Walking from Yonge to Victoria takes 2 minutes, literally. It makes the streetcars so much slower! It really won't kill someone to walk for 3 or 4 minutes to get to a station.

Of course it would be nice to have subways, but apparently that seems a mission impossible for Toronto, so we have to make do with streetcars. Vistors to Toronto often are surprises by the fact that you can park on busy downtown section of Queen West and Dundas West. Is the city insane? That leaves the drivers with -- one lane, who have to share with streetcars. Often the streetcars have to wait for a car to make a turn, or a long time of cars have to wait for the streetcar to load and unload passengers every 3 minutes. It is ridiculous. The system is broken and no one is fixing it. I would suggest prohibiting parking on downtown main streets such as Queen and Dundas so that traffic can flow more smoothly. Part of the street, such as Queen West between Simcoe and Spadina, should be pedestrian and streetcars ONLY. The same applies to King Street. Richmond and Adelaide is just nearby. I don't see the need for cars to move on King and Queen whatsoever.

If subway is not an option, can we at least increase the frequency of streetcars to make them more reliable? Last time I used nextbus service and it shows I need to wait for 17 minutes for the 501 westbound, on a Saturday afternoon. That means it doesn't work. To me, the 510 seems to be the only reliable service I can depend on. One way to do it is to make them turn back after reaching downtown, as most riders go from the suburbs to downtown or vice versa. Not so many go from Woodbine/Queen to Lansdowne/Queen, are there? Many seem to believe the new streetcars are gonna solve the problem. I don't think so. They carry more people, but crowdness is not the issue here. If they come more frequent (less than every 5 minutes), everything will be solved. I'd rather wait for 3 minutes and board a somewhat crowded small streetcar than waiting 15 minutes and board and great looking spacious one. All I need is to get from A to B.

Not only the central part of Gardiner needs to be buried (from Parliament to Bathust), so does the railway tracks (more like to construct roads on top of it to make it invisible). Yes, it will be costly, but it has to be done sooner or later. How to pay for it? Those who choose to drive downtown should pay for the congestion and pollution and noise they cause. The minute you are enter south of Bloor, west of Jarvis, and east of Spadina, you pay $10. It is only fair. Anywhere south of Front st is incredible pedestian unfriendly-- it is more like in the suburbs than in downtown. You know what, if we do that, we may not even need to bury the Gardiner - removing it is enough. Lakeshore blvd is wide enough for the reduced traffic deterred by the fee most likely. What else? Stop hiring union workers to do the job and the city can save a lot. With an improved waterfront/south downtown, the land will be valuable, which means any new development will bring more revenue to the city - preferable something commercial, not all condos. The waterfront neighbourhoods, including highly dense CityPlace desperately need something like a couple of department store, some movie theatres. Bring a Target, bring an AMC, bring a Macy's/Nordstrom. I am sure with the all the development going on and the upwardly mobile folks moving in, these retailers would be willing to pay for the location. You can keep the south downtown as the complete mess (whether you admit or not) and expect big retailers to jump in.

Toronto is not NYC and will never be one. However, it should be Toronto's goal to become as car independent as NYC is. Driving in downtown Toronto should be outrightly a stupid idea only the very rich who can afford hiring chauffeurs will do. Then politics come into play, the city vs suburbs fight and the need to please those car driving suburbanites may again make everything impossible. That's not an excuse for not being able to achieve things, as it is not an obstacle unique to Toronto. Even Los Angeles is building subways faster than Toronto if you check the facts. Sometimes I show hostility and aggression out of frustration, definitely not out of despise toward Toronto.
 
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I don't think I am any different from the previous two posters. Actually what city_lover mentioned is exactly what I have in mind for Toronto, where the core from Jarvis to Spadina is dominated by 20-80 storey skyscrapers, while other parts of the city is mostly regular mid-high rises 6-20 stories. I, however, hate the idea of "preserving" all those 2 or 3 stories old houses (most of which don't really have much special value) within the downtown core, for example, along Yonge st, Queen St, Dundas st etc. Some say it is "charming" or "different" from other cities, I say it is such a huge waste of space. Downtown should be compact, highly dense and it is definitely not the place for 2 storey houses.

Yet as I've suggested before: the really funny thing is, a lot of us Westerners are more than willing to embrace and cherish those equivalent parts of Shanghai and Beijing, to the point where we'd advocate their retention against the brute force of 20-80-storeyism. Because we see beyond the "compact, highly dense" pigeonhole. What you're saying is like insisting that all women "should" look like Playboy centerfolds and all men *should* look like Tom Of Finland types--which is, in the end, rather frightening. (And makes me wonder what kind of life you lead beyond this here realm of the internet message board.)

And on top of that, this is all thread-hijacking. So, kkgg7--buzz off and let this be about 1 Yonge.
 
We would be clamping down in this thread if there were an actual proposal for this site at the moment… but there isn't, so speculation and dreams reign for the meantime.

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Yes this is thread-hijacking, so I will only make one last post (though still hoping for a beautiful development on 1 Yonge).

To reply to KKgg7, I almost agree with everything you have said other than getting rid of our heritage. Tall buildings for the downtown area (they are coming right now though, so I don't see the big deal here - how many 50+ storey buildings are proposed anyway?) Away with the cars and the suburban politics - but don't get rid of our desire to see a good life for everyone and reject a total acceptance of elitism that you seem to support. Subway for downtown, better streetcar service, more beautification and attention to pedestrianized landscapes. Build the southcore with them in mind, bring retail there (I think we will see more along queens quay though, to be fair, and it is a 'hood still in transition, even with all of its lamentable mistakes). Tolls? In a perfect world. But would that be enough to pay for the Gardiner and the railway? Maybe over time, and perhaps the new land would eventually be enough to pay, but not for a very long time. The city doesn't reap very much of the rewards from development, alas. Not to mention the fact that there are many vacant lots downtown left undeveloped, so I think your plan becomes feasible once land fetches even more of a premium than it does today. I would wager that the days of developable land are more limited than any of us would believe, because once the parking lots are gone the easy development opportunities are gone, too - and it won't be long given the current pace of development. But we still have the port lands and the don lands to develop, so I think we will look at burial after that (20-30 years?). I disagree that we would not need the Gardiner with a toll - the population is growing too fast (though I would love to just get rid of it myself).

In the end, we all share a certain frustration with many aspects of Toronto, even though we love others. But remember, all the cities you compare Toronto to are at least twice as large - as in the case of Chicago - and often three or four times as large, or even more, as in NYC, Shanghai, etc. When you say Los Angeles is building more subways, well, LA has a metro population of almost 20 million.

To those used to a developing country's pace of development, I can understand the feeling of a lack of progress in Toronto, but for us, this is yet another phase in Toronto's history of development, and there will be more in the future. But now, Torontonians are enjoying (and criticizing - but do you think those from other cities have no complaints?) this phase of development because it is remarkable in the world for a country like Canada, and I think Toronto will continue to get better as more people move downtown and begin to share the opinions we both seem to share. Hopefully the next Mayor will be a catalyst (though in the meantime perhaps all of us could use Rob Ford's pro-development mindset to our advantage a bit more).
 
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So true Gristle, all I meant was that Ford seems to have an eye for large proposals - the problem is they are his ideas! I've only lived here for just shy of three years, so I don't know that much about the history of the city, but it seemed like many people opposed Miller's grand schemes because of the typical anti-"socialist" mantra (hence no transit city, burying the gardiner, etc.) Ford is buddy buddy with Flaherty and other movers and shakers, so maybe we could get something for the city through his lens if we take the agenda from him. For example, Ford is pro subway so maybe someone could convince him that a downtown line would actually make money and could be done with the private sector.
 
Concerning Ford, I was wondering to which large proposals you might be referring to?

Ford might be buddy buddy with Flaherty and other movers and shakers, but austerity is to be the mood for the foreseeable future. We're not likely to see any more big infrastructure money, and if Transit City is dead, it is dead for a generation. Ford's extended underground Eglinton LRT seems to have run into an unforeseen cost problem called the Don Valley, and he has discovered that no new money from the province for Sheppard subway expansion means no new money. I guess he was
desiring some gravy being delivered from elsewhere. Likely no such luck.
 

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