The point of good signals and traffic markings is that very little thought goes into figuring them out. The average driver is not an urbantoronto poster that can decipher railways signage of both the Dutch and Chinese variants. They should be abundantly clear, instantly, and intuitive. Even Canada is a bilingual country. I was just in Quebec and there were some street signs that took me just a bit longer to decipher, but thankfully most of the traffic markings are instantaneously intuitive.

So, clearly something needs to be redone on QQ. Start with bicycle lights that look like bicycles. Transit lights that look like something else. Big LED no right/left turn signs...maybe something that flashes with oncoming trains. Either that, or lets put our shiny new streetcars on some other line until people get this figured out.
 
It's funny that this is the end result of the "pseudo woonerf" approach to street design - rather than making motorists and pedestrians more cautious it leads them to driving and walking all over the sidewalk, streetcar ROW, cycling trail, etc. Maybe we need to follow a more traditional American (and British) approach and add crossing arms and other physical barriers to save the idiots from themselves.
 
The defining feature of a woonerf is that there are no sidewalks or cycling paths. Everything is together.

They use them in the UK as well, where they're called "home zones".

This is absolutely nothing like a woonerf. The only real change from the typical Toronto street design is that both directions of traffic are on the same side of the streetcar ROW.
 
CDL.TO said:
The defining feature of a woonerf is that there are no sidewalks or cycling paths. Everything is together.

They use them in the UK as well, where they're called "home zones".

This is absolutely nothing like a woonerf. The only real change from the typical Toronto street design is that both directions of traffic are on the same side of the streetcar ROW.
Click to expand...

There is less physical and visual separation than a typical street, particularly looking at grade changes (or lack thereof) and paving materials for the various travel modes. For example in that accident photo the roadway, ROW, trail and sidewalk all appear to be at the same grade.
 
DarnDirtyApe said:
There is less physical and visual separation than a typical street, particularly looking at grade changes (or lack thereof) and paving materials for the various travel modes. For example in that accident photo the roadway, ROW, trail and sidewalk all appear to be at the same grade.
Click to expand...

That still doesn't make the QQ configuration anything like a woonerf, and neither has it been cited as having aspirations in that direction.
 
DarnDirtyApe said:
There is less physical and visual separation than a typical street, particularly looking at grade changes (or lack thereof) and paving materials for the various travel modes. For example in that accident photo the roadway, ROW, trail and sidewalk all appear to be at the same grade.
Click to expand...

There is both a grade difference and a material difference between the side-walks (granite cobble), street-car ROW (concrete) and the road (asphalt). There is a granite ramp on the streetcar ROW at crossing locations to allow for cars to turn. Some huge arrows painted directly onto the ground here showing the driver exactly where to turn might be beneficial.
 
As I pointed out earlier, the fact that this is not configured like a woonerf is likely the reason why it is so dangerous. Queens Quay's roadway is built no differently than any other roadway in the city, meaning drivers enter and use it under the assumption that everything is status quo. When they interact with the ROW and sidewalks, they suddenly enter a different environment. There is no smooth transition that alerts drivers to the change in behaviours (Same goes for pedestrians crossing the ROW or street).

Building all of Queens Quay as a woonerf would have drivers paying attention the moment they enter Queens Quay, as opposed to the moment they enter the sensitive mixing areas, where it then becomes too late.
 
Right, and that's why I called it a pseudo woonerf - drivers turning across the ROW move from a regular roadway to a sensitive mixing area in the middle of a turn and so it's not surprising that many don't handle it well. To me it looks like the driveway is part of the sidewalk...

Just as an example, a left turning driver does not normally have to check their rear view or left side mirrors before proceeding through a turn. To me it sounds like the streetcar signal might also be turning green too quickly after the left turn turns red. Drivers in Ontario have become conditioned to think that it's okay to turn left after the signal has turn red because of the typical "all red" phase that lasts for a couple of seconds at all intersections.
 
Last edited:
I think the major problem here is that the ROW used to separate EB from WB traffic. Now it doesn't, and that is throwing people off
 
DarnDirtyApe said:
Drivers in Ontario have become conditioned to think that it's okay to turn left after the signal has turn red because of the typical "all red" phase that lasts for a couple of seconds at all intersections.
Click to expand...

Right, and this is wrong, as they are running a red light. And it is a problem all over the GTA. This is an attitude that needs to be changed through enforcement.
 
wopchop said:
Right, and this is wrong, as they are running a red light. And it is a problem all over the GTA. This is an attitude that needs to be changed through enforcement.
Click to expand...

The tricky part is that it's not technically running a red light if the vehicle enters the intersection on a green or yellow light and then sits there until after it has turned red. Few people would think to look in the rear view mirror for an overtaking streetcar before completing the turn.

Of course, some of these people are probably running reds blatantly.
 
DarnDirtyApe said:
The tricky part is that it's not technically running a red light if the vehicle enters the intersection on a green or yellow light and then sits there until after it has turned red. Few people would think to look in the rear view mirror for an overtaking streetcar before completing the turn.
Click to expand...
If the vehicle enters the intersection on Queens Quay on a green, and can't complete the turn (presumably because of pedestrians), then surely it's going to be partially on the tracks already ... and the streetcar isn't just going to barrel into it - because it would have already been there when the streetcars's light was red.

Has there been an example of this?
 
DarnDirtyApe said:
The tricky part is that it's not technically running a red light if the vehicle enters the intersection on a green or yellow light and then sits there until after it has turned red. Few people would think to look in the rear view mirror for an overtaking streetcar before completing the turn.

Of course, some of these people are probably running reds blatantly.
Click to expand...

There is no technically about it. You can't enter an intersection unless you can clear through the intersection before the signal turns red.

Sure, people do it. But it doesn't make it correct.
 
Last edited:
DarnDirtyApe said:
The tricky part is that it's not technically running a red light if the vehicle enters the intersection on a green or yellow light and then sits there until after it has turned red. Few people would think to look in the rear view mirror for an overtaking streetcar before completing the turn.

Of course, some of these people are probably running reds blatantly.
Click to expand...

Legally this is what I understand as well (and what is taught at driving schools).

It is illegal to enter a traffic light when it is red (other than right hand turns). It is legal to enter the intersection in anticipation of turning left.

You must wait until pedestrians and vehicles are fully out of the intersection (i.e. when it is safe) before you can start to turn left. You can legally exit the intersection at any phase of the light, green yellow or red. Multiple cars can be turning left and be across the white line (as long as 3/4 of the car is across the line you are "in" the intersection and can legally exit)

If you waited behind the white line to turn left you cannot enter the intersection when the light is yellow or red.

Other vehicles (and pedestrians) cannot start to go across a traffic light until you have "cleared" the intersection.

I assume that a streetcar is a vehicle and must follow these rules as well. So if they started before you have finished your left turn the streetcar driver is at fault.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top