I'd like to cut through any notion of Shedd being somehow ethically superior to Ripley's due to its focus on research and education by pointing out that, like MarineLand and unlike our Ripley's, Shedd has live shows featuring large mammals performing tricks for people's amusement. Also, keep in mind that our Ripley's will feature educational programs and dedicated classroom space, as well as breeding/conservation programs for endangered species.

Are you suggesting the Shedd is no better than Marineland?:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/shedd-aquarium-hospital_n_1317369.html


The training of animals in captivity is not unethical, but the approach can be. The Shedd's seems more than legitimate to me. Please explain how it is not:

http://www.clickerreiter.de/KenRamirez2.htm

In the end, if you're that sticky about animals being trained and observed by the public you probably shouldn't approve of animals in captivity whatsoever.
 
Shark Lagoon:

34040536961192157371510.jpg

That water looks awfully murky, perhaps particulate from construction? They do have scaffolding just sitting in the water...
Any one know if this fill just for test purposes and will be later emptied, to be later refilled? Or will they just filter it?
 
Are you suggesting the Shedd is no better than Marineland?

No, I don't think I was suggesting that the Shedd is no better than MarineLand. I was simply pointing out that, among those who consider the training of captive animals to be unethical, the Shedd shouldn't be cited as an example to be followed. Our aquarium will have educational and conversational aspects, without the ethical issues inherent to keeping performance animals. In short, people's preconceived notion of our aquarium being especially unethical within the realm of aquariums are misplaced.
 
No, I don't think I was suggesting that the Shedd is no better than MarineLand. I was simply pointing out that, among those who consider the training of captive animals to be unethical, the Shedd shouldn't be cited as an example to be followed. Our aquarium will have educational and conversational aspects, without the ethical issues inherent to keeping performance animals. In short, people's preconceived notion of our aquarium being especially unethical within the realm of aquariums are misplaced.

Not only is the training of captive animals not unethical, it is necessary. You can see this in the second link I posted. Kudos to Shedd that they can present this in a way that is both informative and entertaining, yet still respectful of the animals and their needs. There is no correlation between this and what Marineland or many private 'zoos' do.

Is Ripley's any better than Marineland, 'performing' animals or no? I'm not sure, and certainly not qualified to say.... though again, I do have greater concerns when it comes to private, profit-driven aquariums. Let's not forget that Marineland claimed to have 'educational' aspects too.

Anyway, not to rain on everybody's parade here. Yes, I was very clear in my opposition to the entire Ripley's proposal and the plan for the base of the CN Tower (despite certain acknowledged benefits), but I did agree that I would keep my mind open until it is complete and open to the public. In the meantime it's difficult to ignore that the Marineland issue raises some further concerns.
 
The training of animals in captivity is not unethical, but the approach can be. The Shedd's seems more than legitimate to me. Please explain how it is not:

http://www.clickerreiter.de/KenRamirez2.htm

I think I can give some idea why I believe Shedd's approach to captivity isn't more legitimate, that is, more ethical. Though note that this is the first I've heard of Shedd and have read only that link you've here posted. It's possible that there's other information on the website that'll more or less negate my argument, but what can ya do.

From what I can tell, this is more or less Ramirez's, the head of animal training at Shedd, justification for training the animals:

Training the animals at Shedd has always been the main focus of the marine mammal staff because, according to Ramirez, training is the foundation of quality animal care and provides the animals with mental stimulation and physical exercise and, perhaps most important, teaches them to cooperate in their own care

The article then goes on to say:

According to Ramirez, a simple definition of training is teaching—teaching an animal how to live in its environment. Just as a mother whale in the wild trains its calf how to navigate, find food and protect itself from sharks, Shedd Aquarium marine mammal staffers teach their animals how to live in the Oceanarium

So the justification for training seems to be this: it teaches the animals how to live in their new environment, the 'Oceanarium.' Presumably, this is necessary because this environment is significantly different from their natural environment, the ocean. So right away Ramirez concedes that this new environment doesn't sufficiently approximate their natural habitat, because if it did no training would be necessary. Indeed, in the natural environment such training isn't done by humans, but by the animals themselves, as he himself notes in his example of a mother whale training its calf how to navigate the ocean, find food and so on.

Arguably, this is already objectionable. In the least, it silences arguments that attempt to establish a similarity between the aquarium and the ocean such that any claims that the animals are alienated from their natural environments can be overturned. Ramirez himself, in his justification for training the animals, effectively admits that these claims are well-founded. So he's already on shaky ground, I think. But I'm willing to leave this point because I think there's bigger fish to fry--if you will.

It's far better that these animals be trained to live in this new, artificial and foreign environment (all adjectives that I think are pretty clearly summed up in the term 'Oceanarium') than not. This means that these trainers care for the animals and I also believe that these trainers themselves believe they have the animals' best interests in mind. So I'm far from vilifying these people.

But I'm also far from defending them, primarily because of the following reason: nothing in this justification for training the animals amounts to a justification for their captivity. Indeed, their justification for training them presupposes that their captivity is justified. Otherwise, since their training requires their captivity, if this captivity isn't itself justified it's hard to see how anything that requires it is justified.

And I think there's reasons to believe that, in most but not all cases, such captivity is objectionable. Though I'm not an 'non-interventionist' when it comes to animals and nature, I do believe that in most ordinary cases it's in the animals' best interests to develop and exercise their inherent capacities in the very environment in which they evolved to exercise these capacities and that therefore is best suited for them.

Looking at it from that perspective, which I think is the right one, it becomes actually ironically laughable to read Ramirez's defense of animal training. Not only does it fail to defend their captivity, which is the real issue here, it's also self-serving: Ramirez subjects animals to an environment that creates unnatural needs, then he defends his role by satisfying those needs.

In the least, if my argument for why captivity is objectionable is accepted, then Ramirez's justification for their training must also be rejected, for the reason I gave above.

In the end, if you're that sticky about animals being trained and observed by the public you probably shouldn't approve of animals in captivity whatsoever.

I'm willing to bite that bullet, though I wouldn't call myself 'sticky' about it. Just critically reflective.
 
I think I can give some idea why I believe Shedd's approach to captivity isn't more legitimate, that is, more ethical.

You've lost all perspective if you believe that Marineland is no more unethical than the Shedd.


Looking at it from that perspective, which I think is the right one, it becomes actually ironically laughable to read Ramirez's defense of animal training. Not only does it fail to defend their captivity, which is the real issue here, it's also self-serving: Ramirez subjects animals to an environment that creates unnatural needs, then he defends his role by satisfying those needs.

Ramirez has no need to 'defend' captivity. In many cases the only way to observe, study and learn about animals is through captivity... and there are all kinds of positive and constructive reasons why studying animals and learning more about them (and their needs) is beneficial, to both them and us and for the interraction between them and us. That this is done by Ramirez and the Shedd in a thoughtful, learned, engaging and respectful way is commendable and has absolutely nothing in common with how Marineland operates.

In the end I can respect the viewpoint that no captivity is good, even if I don't agree with it... still, I would find it 'ironically laughable' that many who feel this way would keep pets or benefit from the knowledge of animals in any way, which we all do!
 
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Ramirez has no need to 'defend' captivity.

Because my entire post was more or less an attempt to argue that he does have to defend captivity, and because your argument for why this is false isn't clear to me--unless it's that in most cases the only way to learn about animals is through captivity, which I've tried to clearly argue is problematic at least in Ramirez's case since he himself (foolishly?) admits that the animals are subjected to an environment sufficiently different from their natural habitats that they actually have to be trained to carry both foreign and natural behaviours, which suggests that this environment is actually an impediment to understanding their natural behaviours--I'm not sure this continuing this debate will be productive.
 
Tewder, Miscreant's just not familiar with the Shedd yet. Go easy!

The Shedd is renowned Miscreant. It's maybe unwise to build an argument about something that's barely researched, as you said…
I think I can give some idea why I believe Shedd's approach to captivity isn't more legitimate, that is, more ethical. Though note that this is the first I've heard of Shedd and have read only that link you've here posted. It's possible that there's other information on the website that'll more or less negate my argument, but what can ya do.
 
Hope it shuts-up the bleeding hearts............No major issues found in inspection, says Marineland

NIAGARA FALLS, Ont. -- Marineland says the Canadian Association of Zoos and Aquariums has found no "major issues" at the Niagara Falls, Ont., facility.

In a release issued late Thursday, the amusement park says experts from CAZA and the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals conducted a joint inspection.

This follows a series of published reports in which former Marineland staff alleged animals were not being properly cared for.

Dr. June Mergl, head of veterinary services at Marineland, said the allegations were without context, and that maintaining the welfare of the animals is a "balancing act."

Marineland says the CAZA experts noted there are "some eye issues in a few animals," but most are related to old age and all of these animals are under veterinary care.

Marineland is home to a variety of creatures, including beluga whales, dolphins and orcas.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/no-major-issues-found-in-inspection-says-marineland-1.927959
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/08/24/toronto-marineland-ospca-inspection.html
 
Geez, an inspection that occurred AFTER the public scrutiny shone a spotlight on the conditions? That's tantamount to telling restaurants when inspectors would be coming in to check things up after unsanitary conditions broke the news at 6. Surely one can't be that guillible to take that kind of inspection and its' results at face value?

AoD
 
Yes, it's hard to take this too seriously. Can they do surprise inspections?

... and is one a bleeding heart for caring about animals that are forced into captivity?
 
I found this quote particularly perplexing:

Dr. June Mergl, head of veterinary services at Marineland, said the allegations were without context, and that maintaining the welfare of the animals is a "balancing act."

A balancing act of what, exactly?

AoD
 

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