[datamouse]

If traffic is bad this encourages people to use the subway, if the subway goes where people want to go. The trouble is, since the subway only goes between Don Mills and Yonge and there are not enough other lines in the system people use their cars instead, since most people in this area do not work in downtown Toronto. Highway 401 and Sheppard Avenue between Yonge and Highway 404 are bad for much of the day, not just in rush hour. The large cluster of condos around Sheppard/Bayview has caused a big increase in traffic congestion, and I worry that we will see the same effect at Sheppard/Kennedy when more buildings in the Metrogate complex are built. If the subway went to Scarborough then this would encourage people who work in Scarborough to use it instead of driving; if there were other subway lines in the system like Eglinton (e.g. for people in this area who work in Mississauga near the airport), a line along Don Mills (for people who work in the Don Mills area and in Markham), etc. then even people who own cars would use the subway.

Hopefully the congestion will encourage people to seek alternative forms of transit. Decades of car based suburban culture is hard to change. People moved to these areas decades when they were developed to escape the. Heck I only just for the first time this week decided to use the subway to get to Bessarion instead of driving there.
The Metrogate development will only add to problems in the area I fear. The road network as it stands makes the transit option not so appealing. Of course the development was advertised with access to the proposed Agincourt GO subway station which would have been right in their back yard.

 

[rbt]

If I had to guess I'd say it's because Sheppard currently doesn't go anywhere as it was never finished.

It won't go anywhere* when it is finished either.

* Anywhere is defined as a place the drivers living on/near Sheppard who are using the 401 wish to get to.

It's far cheaper for it to be short and go nowhere useful than for it to be long and go nowhere useful.

 

[figaro]

having living in Toronto for just over four years, I have to say people drive their cars because they NEED them.

Let's face it, unless you live inside downtown core, or with 10 minutes walking distance from one of our limited subway stations (plus working near a station too), you most likely need a car. Toronto's transit system is extensive enough, however, RAPID transit system is embarrassingly small. People still need their cars to have any sort of decent social activity. I am not talking about families with small children, but people in general.

I live 1 minute walking distance from a downtown subway station, and I walk to work. I am a hardcore urbanist and I DON'T like cars. However, even I often think I need a car. I don't want a car but I need one, because our transit system can't bring me to many places quickly (and reliably) where I often need to go. So many times I miss events and social gatherings etc because it takes too much time to get to the destination, as a 25 minutes drive often takes as much as an hour or more to go to by transit.

People will choose not to drive ONLY IF it doesn't significantly inconvenience their lives. Last year I was so close to buying a car before finding out the parking alone in my building will cost $250 a month.

Zipcar etc aren't that helpful because you have to return the car at the same garage. I don't want to drive 25 minutes, then park the car in a lot for the next 4 or 5 hours paying for the time. Zipcars only work if you need to make a quick trip somewhere to pick up something or someone. It doesn't help if you need to go somewhere to do things.

Renting a car might be an option, but it is so costly in Canada. When I lived in the US, it often cost as little as 10-20 bucks for one day. In Toronto, the cheapest are usually 50+, many in the $70s, for one day. And the cheap ones are usually in suburban locations where it is difficult to go to in the first place.

Let's not pretend Toronto is a transit friendly city where not owning a car is the way to go, like it is in New York or Paris. No, we are essentially more like Los Angeles than New York in this respect. Our transit system is simply far from good enough for the vast majority to live without cars.

Probably a lower percentages of Torontonians own cars than LA, but in my opinion, that's more of a financial concern rather than "we don't need it in Toronto". The cost of owning a car can be two to three times as high as it is in Los Angeles, when you factor in insurance, car loan payments, and fuel expenses and income difference. Many in Toronto don't own cars because they can't afford it, not because they don't need them. For example, for a young driver with little history, it costs about $1,000-$1,500 a year to insure a Ford/Toyota. In Toronto, it costs $4,000 or higher.

 

[W. K. Lis]

having living in Toronto for just over four years, I have to say people drive their cars because they NEED them.

Let's face it, unless you live inside downtown core, or with 10 minutes walking distance from one of our limited subway stations (plus working near a station too), you most likely need a car. Toronto's transit system is extensive enough, however, RAPID transit system is embarrassingly small. People still need their cars to have any sort of decent social activity. I am not talking about families with small children, but people in general.

I live 1 minute walking distance from a downtown subway station, and I walk to work. I am a hardcore urbanist and I DON'T like cars. However, even I often think I need a car. I don't want a car but I need one, because our transit system can't bring me to many places quickly (and reliably) where I often need to go. So many times I miss events and social gatherings etc because it takes too much time to get to the destination, as a 25 minutes drive often takes as much as an hour or more to go to by transit.

People will choose not to drive ONLY IF it doesn't significantly inconvenience their lives. Last year I was so close to buying a car before finding out the parking alone in my building will cost $250 a month.

Zipcar etc aren't that helpful because you have to return the car at the same garage. I don't want to drive 25 minutes, then park the car in a lot for the next 4 or 5 hours paying for the time. Zipcars only work if you need to make a quick trip somewhere to pick up something or someone. It doesn't help if you need to go somewhere to do things.

Renting a car might be an option, but it is so costly in Canada. When I lived in the US, it often cost as little as 10-20 bucks for one day. In Toronto, the cheapest are usually 50+, many in the $70s, for one day. And the cheap ones are usually in suburban locations where it is difficult to go to in the first place.

Let's not pretend Toronto is a transit friendly city where not owning a car is the way to go, like it is in New York or Paris. No, we are essentially more like Los Angeles than New York in this respect. Our transit system is simply far from good enough for the vast majority to live without cars.

Probably a lower percentages of Torontonians own cars than LA, but in my opinion, that's more of a financial concern rather than "we don't need it in Toronto". The cost of owning a car can be two to three times as high as it is in Los Angeles, when you factor in insurance, car loan payments, and fuel expenses and income difference. Many in Toronto don't own cars because they can't afford it, not because they don't need them. For example, for a young driver with little history, it costs about $1,000-$1,500 a year to insure a Ford/Toyota. In Toronto, it costs $4,000 or higher.

Car 2 Go (see this link) allows users to:

Our free floating concept means there is no return time or return location. When you’re done, simply park the car in a Green P parkade or designated car2go parking location within the Home Area and the car2go service team takes care of the rest. Refueling, cleaning, roadside assistance, GPS navigation, insurance, parking and many other services are all included in the affordable rental price. car2go is just what it sounds like - a car to go.

 

[sixrings]

having living in Toronto for just over four years, I have to say people drive their cars because they NEED them.

Let's face it, unless you live inside downtown core, or with 10 minutes walking distance from one of our limited subway stations (plus working near a station too), you most likely need a car. Toronto's transit system is extensive enough, however, RAPID transit system is embarrassingly small. People still need their cars to have any sort of decent social activity. I am not talking about families with small children, but people in general.

I live 1 minute walking distance from a downtown subway station, and I walk to work. I am a hardcore urbanist and I DON'T like cars. However, even I often think I need a car. I don't want a car but I need one, because our transit system can't bring me to many places quickly (and reliably) where I often need to go. So many times I miss events and social gatherings etc because it takes too much time to get to the destination, as a 25 minutes drive often takes as much as an hour or more to go to by transit.

People will choose not to drive ONLY IF it doesn't significantly inconvenience their lives. Last year I was so close to buying a car before finding out the parking alone in my building will cost $250 a month.

Zipcar etc aren't that helpful because you have to return the car at the same garage. I don't want to drive 25 minutes, then park the car in a lot for the next 4 or 5 hours paying for the time. Zipcars only work if you need to make a quick trip somewhere to pick up something or someone. It doesn't help if you need to go somewhere to do things.

Renting a car might be an option, but it is so costly in Canada. When I lived in the US, it often cost as little as 10-20 bucks for one day. In Toronto, the cheapest are usually 50+, many in the $70s, for one day. And the cheap ones are usually in suburban locations where it is difficult to go to in the first place.

Let's not pretend Toronto is a transit friendly city where not owning a car is the way to go, like it is in New York or Paris. No, we are essentially more like Los Angeles than New York in this respect. Our transit system is simply far from good enough for the vast majority to live without cars.

Probably a lower percentages of Torontonians own cars than LA, but in my opinion, that's more of a financial concern rather than "we don't need it in Toronto". The cost of owning a car can be two to three times as high as it is in Los Angeles, when you factor in insurance, car loan payments, and fuel expenses and income difference. Many in Toronto don't own cars because they can't afford it, not because they don't need them. For example, for a young driver with little history, it costs about $1,000-$1,500 a year to insure a Ford/Toyota. In Toronto, it costs $4,000 or higher.

i think there are really 4 problems...

1. It is still cheap in comparison to new york or paris to own a parking spot... new york you are looking at over 100k just for a spot... and the houses in the burbs typically only have on street parking... We more or less all have our own driveways or pretty cheap parking downtown comparitively and where ever we go parking is typically available. Id also like to point out that the TTC isnt cheap.. The NYC subway costs less and goes farther... Also nYC parking is insane... So in both ways it makes sense to take transit... In toronto often its cheaper for me to drive especially when im with my wife than it would be to pay for 4 ttc tokens. Just think about how much id save driving if I had a couple kids... It makes a difference.

2. our jobs arent as centrally located so people dont feel a need to live in one part of the city but rather will live anywhere and simply commute... This also doesnt help our transit system because people are going in every direction versus all to one direction.

3. our transit system hasnt kept up especially in rapid transit terms... now we face major financial costs of building and nimbyism in certain neighbourhoods. I live on eglinton which is the underground section and some of the loudest nimbyism is coming from the car drivers in my neighbourhood who dont want transit construction which wil effect their commutes and they deffinately dont want the extra density that will come with the route... its not just the above ground LRT that is facing NIMBYism...

4. our friends and family live everywhere in the sprawling city and we want to get around to see them. In sex and the city the girls wouldnt date people because they lived to far on the other side of manhatten then others. In seinfeld Elaine was embarresed to get a new area code thinking people will assume she lives in the country. In NYC they wont cheer for the NJ devils because they are a bridge away... But next year they will support the Nets because now technically they will be NYC.... my point is that in some cities people are willing to stop seeing people who live too far away which reduces traffic... On the other hand my mother in law drives from mississauga to brampton 4 times a week just to have coffee with her sister...That does add to traffic... Just look at the 401 on saturdays...

 

[Paolo]

Hopefully the congestion will encourage people to seek alternative forms of transit. Decades of car based suburban culture is hard to change. People moved to these areas decades when they were developed to escape the. Heck I only just for the first time this week decided to use the subway to get to Bessarion instead of driving there.
The Metrogate development will only add to problems in the area I fear. The road network as it stands makes the transit option not so appealing. Of course the development was advertised with access to the proposed Agincourt GO subway station which would have been right in their back yard.

Tell that to employers. i am noticing more and more employers are anti-car pool friendly, employers are scheduling people to work during the standard business work hours and they are traveling alone thus adding to traffic and congestion, some employers are paying their employees to do field and travel work, so a car IS MANDATORY, you cant be a plumber and take the bus? lol. so yeah the problem starts with the employers too. my work requires me to be on time by a certain hour, i even mentioned if they schedule me and buddy the same time we can car pool together, then the only problem is if buddys late, im late, or if im late he gets late too, but hten we can take the hov lanes on the hwy

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Also, several employers are posting job opportunities where they demand that you have access to a car. For instance, a friend of mine works at an immigrant settlement agency in the Midland and Sheppard area and her boss expected her to drive to a meeting at Dufferin and Finch two weeks ago. Not too sure why she couldn't use a Metropass and take TTC.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Does anyone know the distances between the new stations?

 

[Hipster Duck]

Also, several employers are posting job opportunities where they demand that you have access to a car. For instance, a friend of mine works at an immigrant settlement agency in the Midland and Sheppard area and her boss expected her to drive to a meeting at Dufferin and Finch two weeks ago. Not too sure why she couldn't use a Metropass and take TTC.

Very true. A lot of jobs demand that you not only drive to the suburban office park where your office is located, but drive to attend meetings at clients in suburban office parks, often on the opposite side of the region. I've had a job where the plant was in Vaughan but the offices were in Mississauga; there was a steady stream of cars entering and exiting the parking lot at all hours to head between the two places. Then I've had another job where I worked downtown, but we had to visit customers/clients in the burbs. At least in that case I didn't need a car and could Zipcar it out to Mississauga or Oakville, but we were still adding to congestion.

 

[nfitz]

Also, several employers are posting job opportunities where they demand that you have access to a car. For instance, a friend of mine works at an immigrant settlement agency in the Midland and Sheppard area and her boss expected her to drive to a meeting at Dufferin and Finch two weeks ago. Not too sure why she couldn't use a Metropass and take TTC.

Because it's 2-hours there and back on TTC, and 40-minutes driving.

On the other hand, given how H&S-obsessed many companies are getting, and the vast percentage of workplace accidents being while driving on business, it's starting to get to the point, where some employers might prefer people to take a bit longer on transit. Still, 20-minutes versus 60-minutes is excessive. And there's other options ... taxis. car-sharing like Zipcar and Autoshare.

I'm lucky I work near Union ... and I've been able to get to some meeting in remote parts of Oakville and Mississauga by taking the Lakeshore line, and then catching a convenient local bus that meets the train, without it taking much extra time (and perhaps less coming back in rush-hour). And in a fallback, I can catch a taxi out there to get to the office, if I just miss the bus.

 

[EnviroTO]

Zipcar etc aren't that helpful because you have to return the car at the same garage. I don't want to drive 25 minutes, then park the car in a lot for the next 4 or 5 hours paying for the time. Zipcars only work if you need to make a quick trip somewhere to pick up something or someone. It doesn't help if you need to go somewhere to do things.

When you buy a car you are effectively paying for it the whole year despite not using it every day and minute. I don't see the issue of paying 4 to 5 hours of the car being parked if 5 days a week you are paying nothing. Only public transit allows you to only pay for the time in transit. Zipcar and Autoshare get you much closer to the pay per use model than full car ownership.

 

[Tuscani01]

When you buy a car you are effectively paying for it the whole year despite not using it every day and minute. I don't see the issue of paying 4 to 5 hours of the car being parked if 5 days a week you are paying nothing. Only public transit allows you to only pay for the time in transit. Zipcar and Autoshare get you much closer to the pay per use model than full car ownership.

Because owning and paying for the car is still cheaper than having to rely on Zipcar or Autoshare. I used Zipcar for a few years and was spending about what I spend now to drive (Insurance and Gas). Yes there are extra costs for owning a car, but the convenience a car offers is worth that extra $100 every now and then. Doing a lot of the maintenance work yourself also helps keep the costs down.

Eg. Using Zipcar once a weekend for 6 hours = $60 (at their best rate which isn't even available weekends) x 4 weekends a month = $240. Car insurance is $204 a month (and thats bundled with home insurance, so the actual car insurance is less than $204. The $40 difference is enough gas to last for more than a month if the car is only used one day a week. Yes, the car itself costs money, but again, its worth the convenience. Split it between two people in a household and the costs are even less.

 

[figaro]

When you buy a car you are effectively paying for it the whole year despite not using it every day and minute. I don't see the issue of paying 4 to 5 hours of the car being parked if 5 days a week you are paying nothing. Only public transit allows you to only pay for the time in transit. Zipcar and Autoshare get you much closer to the pay per use model than full car ownership.

Even so, I doubt anybody will spend $60+tax at zipcar just to have a $20 dinner with a friend on the other side of the city.

 

[Chuck]

Since we're on the subject, I will say that I've always thought that suburban mixed use (live/work/play) developments were counter productive. For one. Most people end up driving, even when they live 5 minutes away. For two, many people still don't end up working in their suburb even when jobs are nearby, meaning that suburb to suburb trips are created that can never be served by transit. The latter is especially true for couples when at best, one of them works locally.

Many jobs cannot be located downown, and the suburbs will always generate local jobs like schools, retail, municipal jobs, etc. But so many more people could use transit if office jobs at least were centralized downtown.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Finally, an update from TYSSE site:

Considering that Holey and Moley will start the Sheppard W - Downsview tunneling soon, they should be done boring some time next summer. At the same time, Yorkie and Torkie will complete the Steeles West -- Keele-Finch stretch. Now, why not to place all four of them at the 407 launch site instead of re-launching Y and T twice?

Back on subject, sort of...

Couldn't find a video on Holey and Moley, so found the next best thing. This is a Herrenknecht tunneling video, demonstrating tunnel boring machine operation.