[Transportfan]

It also requires more tunnel, and therefore, is more expensive. It can also make things tricky if you need to store a train in the tailtracks.

Considering the money the TTC spends on building extravagent stations, the expense of a bit more tunnel isn't that big a deal. As for the train storage, you build a pocket track between the tailtracks for the turnaround.

 

[nfitz]

Considering the money the TTC spends on building extravagent stations, the expense of a bit more tunnel isn't that big a deal. As for the train storage, you build a pocket track between the tailtracks for the turnaround.

Extravagant stations? Toronto? You've been sold a package of goods there ... the Sheppard line stations seem quite utilitarian. The Bloor-Danforth stations are extremely underwhelming. And the Yonge-University stations are mostly lacking in platform space and stairwell widths.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Extravagant stations? Toronto? You've been sold a package of goods there ... the Sheppard line stations seem quite utilitarian. The Bloor-Danforth stations are extremely underwhelming. And the Yonge-University stations are mostly lacking in platform space and stairwell widths.

When the original Spadina extension was built from SPADINA to WILSON, it was mostly (DUPONT, ST. CLAIR WEST, EGLINTON WEST, GLENCARIN, and YORKDALE) built to imitate Montréal's Metro stations' art. Less money was allocated towards the Sheppard line. Will have to see how the current Spadina extension (and the Eglinton Crosstown) turns out.

 

[innsertnamehere]

My understanding is that the eglinton crosstown will have fairy standard stations, especially compared to the spadina extension. The spadina extension will have by far the most extravagant stations in the system.

 

[junctionist]

Considering the money the TTC spends on building extravagent stations, the expense of a bit more tunnel isn't that big a deal. As for the train storage, you build a pocket track between the tailtracks for the turnaround.

When it comes to tunnels versus stations, I believe that tunnelling is the most expensive part. I still don't understand why the TTC has such high design standards for these stations but then redesigns existing stations in busier and more established areas to look unsophisticated like the platform at Dufferin Station or most of the renovated 1954 stations on the Yonge line. The standards should be high because subway stations are highly-used public spaces at the heart of neighbourhoods and important transportation nodes.

 

[nfitz]

When it comes to tunnels versus stations, I believe that tunnelling is the most expensive part.

Given that the tunnels are coming in at about $50 million per kilometre, and the stations are in the $75-million to $125-million range each, then unless the stations are about 2-km apart are more, surely the stations are the most expensive cost.

 

[junctionist]

Given that the tunnels are coming in at about $50 million per kilometre, and the stations are in the $75-million to $125-million range each, then unless the stations are about 2-km apart are more, surely the stations are the most expensive cost.

That's interesting to know. Is there anywhere that I can find the numbers to be able to cite this fact with confidence? I've seen contract figures for different parts of the extension, but nothing that lists how much the stations themselves are supposed to cost.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Tunnelling must cost more than that because you are estimating between $125-175 million a km, while in reality it is closer to $300 million a km.

 

[nfitz]

That's interesting to know. Is there anywhere that I can find the numbers to be able to cite this fact with confidence? I've seen contract figures for different parts of the extension, but nothing that lists how much the stations themselves are supposed to cost.

The Spadina tunelling contracts are tough to calculate the tunnelling costs, as each contract includes tunnel and 1 station. I suppose you could average the cost of the other 4 stations and subtract that from the tunnel/station contract to ballpark the tunnel cost.

But if you look at the Eglinton line, the first tunnel contract they awarded is just for tunnel. $320 million for 6.2 km. $51.6 million per kilometre.

Tunnelling must cost more than that because you are estimating between $125-175 million a km, while in reality it is closer to $300 million a km.

That's just tunnel and stations. What about land aquisition, design, vehicles, track installation, electrical installation, power substations, signalling, testing, commissioning, yard expansions, etc. The 10 new trainsets alone for the Spadina extension cost $128,551,071.30. That's about $15 million per kilometre of the $300 million just on trains.

 

[rbt]

Tunnelling must cost more than that because you are estimating between $125-175 million a km, while in reality it is closer to $300 million a km.

Tunnelling is just a tunnel with a concrete shell. It does not include rails, power, radio, wiring, safety equipment, emergency exits, drainage pumps, lighting, worker walkways, emergency exit shafts, or trains. Sometimes, like Eglinton, it didn't even include the TBM launch and extraction holes which were tendered separately.

Also, that $50M/km does not include soil testing, engineering, or community consulations around where it should go or in many cases the extraction pits for the TBMs. It also doesn't include TTC staff overheads (accounting, money management, project management, ...)


The TTC's $300M/km (or $400M/km) quotes are for a completed product from start to finish, including rolling stock, storage yards, maintenance equipment, testing, inspections, internal staff costs, etc.

There is a lot that goes into the holes once you remove the dirt and put in the shell.

Station quotes are closer to a finished product (escalators/elevators installed, and finishes) but will not include track level equipment.

Worth noting is that station quotes also include some track spaces like room for power equipment and switches/turnback/train storage areas.

 

[Palma]

Given that the tunnels are coming in at about $50 million per kilometre, and the stations are in the $75-million to $125-million range each, then unless the stations are about 2-km apart are more, surely the stations are the most expensive cost.

I am ssurprise that the major cost is the station design and not the tunneling. So why do these large stataions especially along spadina line (once you past Yorkdale) and goes no where have these large stations?. Why does no one talk about this in the media? They could have started and built 1/2 of the DRL with that money instead of going towards the large stations.

 

[nfitz]

I am ssurprise that the major cost is the station design and not the tunneling. So why do these large stataions especially along spadina line (once you past Yorkdale) and goes no where have these large stations?. Why does no one talk about this in the media? They could have started and built 1/2 of the DRL with that money instead of going towards the large stations.

They have to be the same length as the existing stations, or the train wouldn't fit. Not sure what you mean by large. They have to dig the hole that big. They've saved space by having a single platform. And they are so cheap these days, that they leave most of the hole open now, instead of filling it in ...

 

[W. K. Lis]

I am ssurprise that the major cost is the station design and not the tunneling. So why do these large stataions especially along spadina line (once you past Yorkdale) and goes no where have these large stations?. Why does no one talk about this in the media? They could have started and built 1/2 of the DRL with that money instead of going towards the large stations.

The connection tunnels or walkways to the buses, the waiting areas, and the bus bays themselves would be an additional cost to build. It would be cheaper if they had on-streets transfers, like downtown. However, there would be no large waiting areas, washrooms for the drivers, frustration with the paper transfers, and could block traffic as the buses wait on the street.

 

[the lemur]

I am ssurprise that the major cost is the station design and not the tunneling. So why do these large stataions especially along spadina line (once you past Yorkdale) and goes no where have these large stations?. Why does no one talk about this in the media? They could have started and built 1/2 of the DRL with that money instead of going towards the large stations.

Are you talking about the size of the actual station buildings?

 

[JayBeeGooner]

I am ssurprise that the major cost is the station design and not the tunneling. So why do these large stataions especially along spadina line (once you past Yorkdale) and goes no where have these large stations?. Why does no one talk about this in the media? They could have started and built 1/2 of the DRL with that money instead of going towards the large stations.

If I recall, the Steeles West station will cost around $159 million. Just using this as base number, the total cost for the 6 stations will be around $1 billion. Metrolinx claim the DRL will cost $7.4 Billion?

What's there to talk about? You're not going to save much building cheap ultarian stations.

Building subways are expensive, its just the way it is. Look at how much NYC is paying for the 7 line extension. We're getting an entire line for the cost of a short extension in New York.