WislaHD said:
I'd have hoped that the Eglinton Subway as once proposed, would have been extended east post-completion.
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Just like the Sheppard has been extended since it opened?
 
Edward Skira said:
Just like the Sheppard has been extended since it opened?
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If the Eglinton West subway was built as planned, extending it to Don Mills would have been a lot more cheaper than the crosstown. Elevating the subway to Kennedy and maybe to Scarborough Centre (if they could solve the RT corridor challenge) would have been a better outcome than the escalating costs and political mess paralyzing that part of the city.

I retrospect, cancelling that subway is costing us big time today
 
Cobra said:
If the Eglinton West subway was built as planned, extending it to Don Mills would have been a lot more cheaper than the crosstown. Elevating the subway to Kennedy and maybe to Scarborough Centre (if they could solve the RT corridor challenge) would have been a better outcome than the escalating costs and political mess paralyzing that part of the city.

I retrospect, cancelling that subway is costing us big time today
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I am not sure how you can link the Eglinton subway of the 90s to the conclusion that a) it will be significantly cheaper to extend the line - beyond infrastructure that is already paid for in that scenario between Allen and York Centre and b) it equate to choosing an elevated line to Kennedy.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
I am not sure how you can link the Eglinton subway of the 90s to the conclusion that a) it will be significantly cheaper to extend the line - beyond infrastructure that is already paid for in that scenario between Allen and York Centre and b) it equate to choosing an elevated line to Kennedy.

AoD
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I'll change "significantly cheaper" for just "cheaper"

I was assuming that building an extension after the 90s project instead of building the crosstown from scratch:
  • less km of new subway to build since the 90s project would have been built at then $M/Km instead of today's cost
  • Cheaper vehicles than the LRT trains
  • smaller tunnels since there would be no overhead wires
  • Perhaps studies for elevation past Don Mills could have been explored
***not looking to derail this thread
 
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drum118 said:
It wasn't gutted, it was given a Billion dollars to take it as far as the money would allow it under good old Mike. Sheppard got built because Mel twisted enough arms at council since this was his pet toy as well mayor of the once city of North York before Mike force the merger.

Eglinton got the raw deal to a point, but would the ridership be any higher than Sheppard as well doing 2-3 transfers if it was completed as plan???
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I say gutted, you say shortened due to lack of funds. Tomato, tomahto. Eglinton got screwed more, no question, but I don't think there's any question the Sheppard subway would have higher ridership and have triggered more development if it had been built to where it should have. You can't plan a network and then eliminate one line and reduce one to a stub and then analyze what's left out of context.

And I don't blame Mel for salvaging what he could. I dunno what they coulda done on Eglinton with $1B; probably fewer KM of tunnel so even more of a compromised stub, albeit in an area that needed it more. But that's still on Harris as far as I'm concerned. Who knows how much property tax $, development charges etc. were lost to Toronto so Harris could "save" taxpayers money. And it's essentially being built now anyway so let's throw in 20 years of construction cost increases to off-set his "savings" while we're at it. Literally billions of Toronto and Ontario money wasted on a short-sighted lie.
So much easier to destroy than to build....

Anyway, relatively on-topic, I was driving on Highway 7 in Vaughan today and things are coming along. The Viva lanes look like they must be 95% complete so we'll see how long they wait there. Also, there's a disgusting concrete thingie right beside the future Cosmo condo site and it has a "Coming Soon From Liberty Developments" sign that I didn't see before. So, another tower or two to join Cosmos and Expo.
 
WislaHD said:
The business case for extending Eglinton east to Yonge line, and all the way to Don Mills is a lot stronger than any Sheppard extension.
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Density on Sheppard east right now is higher on average than density on Eglinton East between Yonge and Don Mills. And given the properties along the catchment area, Sheppard has higher development potential than Eglinton overall.
 
UD2 said:
Density on Sheppard east right now is higher on average than density on Eglinton East between Yonge and Don Mills. And given the properties along the catchment area, Sheppard has higher development potential than Eglinton overall.
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There are other factors.

Eglinton is a lot more urban than Sheppard, with a much more urban street grid. Transit mode share is a lot higher on Eglinton than on Sheppard. Those condos on Sheppard, their parking lots are full of workers who commute via 401.

Eglinton East bus routes combined generate a lot more ridership than Sheppard East. There are a lot more office and shopping destinations on Eglinton corridor than Sheppard.

From network perspective, connecting Eglinton West Subway with the Yonge Line, and with Don Mills brings tremendous benefit to riders, as well as with eliminating many severely congested bus routes.

8km of tunnel takes you from Allen to Don Mills on Eglinton, while 8km takes you from Fairview to STC on Sheppard. I think it is obvious which route has a better business case, regardless of how many condos you can put on Sheppard.
 
From an update to York Region Council
  • The VIVA station in the middle of the road that directly connects to the subway won't open until Spring 2018; passengers will get on and off at the side of the road
  • Meanwhile, the bus terminal is supposedly going to open by December
 
Red October said:
Almost like most "fiscal conservatives" don't actually save anybody any money.
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I would love to see your work on that....how much was saved over the last 20 years ....intitial capital cost, operating costs and debt service on the capital borrowing {as the reason it was chopped was we did not actually have the money} versus cost today for the portion of crosstown that runs from Eglinton West to Renforth......I am not saying your wrong but I would think it might be closer than most gut instincts think.
 
Fiscal Conservativism has become a buzzword for being cheap.

There are no real fiscal conservatives anymore. Real fiscal conservatives would support raising taxes for infrastracture that pays for itself in the long run because that is the fiscally responsible thing to do. Ala Bill Davis, who invested and expanded education, healthcare, welfare and infrastructure because that increased our long-term productivity and profit.

If people wanted to run government like a business, they would want to invest in infrastructure and other projects for future expansion of business. What "fiscal conservatives" these days do is the government equivalant of cutting jobs and downsizing for quick dividends that they can share with their buddies shareholders.
 
TOareaFan said:
I would love to see your work on that....how much was saved over the last 20 years ....intitial capital cost, operating costs and debt service on the capital borrowing {as the reason it was chopped was we did not actually have the money} versus cost today for the portion of crosstown that runs from Eglinton West to Renforth......I am not saying your wrong but I would think it might be closer than most gut instincts think.
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If you are limiting your analysis to the TTC's balance sheet, then yes the carried cost versus today's build cost may be comparable. What matters more is how much economic benefit people derive as individuals and as a community from the subway. That's a much fuzzier analysis, but I would speculate that the property tax and business tax revenue from the increased development of the Harris era subway project would bring things close to break even by now.

Re not having the money then - does anyone believe we have it now?

- Paul
 
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