[Sandpit]

If YRT only had to serve up to Stouffville Rd, it would probably be able to improve service on the main routes like this.

I think York Region is basically a asymmetrical federation. Revenues from Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Markham subsidize services in King, Stouffville, East Gwillimbury, and Georgina.

 

[Sandpit]

I've thought about this... And I doubt it makes that much of a difference to the TTC, I'm willing to guess that the percentage of TTC's riders that come in from, for example, York Region is rather insignificant. However I'd guess that a large majority of YRT/VIVA riders DO transfer to the TTC.

So if for example a shared fare structure were put into place where the combined fare were some value that is lower than the full fare cost of both systems ($3+$3.60=$6.60), for argument sake lets say $5. This fare is than shared equally among the two transit systems, TTC gets $2.50, and YRT gets $2.50. I have a feeling that YRT would feel a greater pinch from this structure vs the TTC. Hopefully what I'm trying to say is clear.

YRT may not be able to accommodate a subsidized fare such as this, where TTC would certainly see a loss of revenue as well but the loss would be a drop in the bucket compared to YRT. Does the Provincial government step in and cover the lost revenue from the discounted co-fare???

Such an agreement would most likely be paid for by the Province, with the discount being applied to the second fare (so the Province would reimburse that agency, whatever that is). Might be a great election promise. Combine this with a "GTA Monthly Pass" (a "GTA Weekly Pass" already exists and costs $63) and you'll have partial fare integration (which might be the best we'll get).

 

[Leo_Chan]

I think York Region is basically a asymmetrical federation. Revenues from Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Markham subsidize services in King, Stouffville, East Gwillimbury, and Georgina.

No more subsidizing -> more service!

 

[micheal_can]

Yup, YRT's service area is basically one of the largest service areas of any municipality in North America.

At least they have the tax base to support it.

Greater Sudbury has some far flung areas that are covered, and we have a population under 175K

 

[Leo_Chan]

Shouldn't this YRT talk be in this thread:
York Region Transit: Viva service thread

 

[innsertnamehere]

Thought I would calculate a total unit count and estimated population for VMC for existing residential development proposals in the area.

There are currently 6,773 units proposed, under construction, or built. At the standard apartment rate of 1.9 people / unit, you arrive at an estimated population of 13,546. The only two buildings completed today have a combined 704 units, with an estimated population of 1,338. This means that VMC can be expected to grow by 12,208 people upon build out of existing proposals (with more coming), or a growth rate of 1012%. This is likely to occur sometime around 2020-2022.

There are currently 3,814 of these units under construction, about 7,250 people, with an additional 2,255 units proposed. All units have been marketed, and the vast majority have been sold.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Maybe York Region should try having a proper bus system. Spending billions on transit to have people picked up by car is just sad.

Privatization and lack of fare integration does wonders.

And let's not miss the essential point beyond the junkie riders. For the most part, their 'trip' is paid for by Torontonians.

It's absurd that these people are being catered to by subway instead of GO Transit. Is it good that they are taking transit into TO instead of driving the entire way? Well of course. What's scurrilous is their being catered to by TTC. This is an expensive, inefficient and slow way to get people into the core, and not only at the fiscal expense of Torontonians, who are subsidizing Vaughan riders, but denying Torontonians better transit by doing so by taking seats on trains that should be theirs.

I'm the first to bitch about Toronto expecting a free ride from QP on subway dreams, but that makes the point all the more abject that what little Torontonians have should be spent for the benefit of Torontonians. Sure York Region tossed in on building costs. They haven't on operating costs.

Meantime the King Pilot gets $1.5M to get new clothes while getting pimped...

Last I checked, RER is not a viable option now, not everyone works at Union Station, Transferring from GO to the TTC takes a long time, it's expensive, and GO actually takes longer than the subway in many instances. It takes around an hour just to take the Richmond Hill line into Union, while a subway would take less time, at worse just as much time from RHC, would go closer to people's work, and is FAR less expensive. (not saying I disagree on the KSP thing, but it's a short-term solution, a 7 billion dollar subway is coming your way in 13 years.

People in Toronto never get dropped off at subways by car.

Go to Kipling, Islington, Royal York, Sheppard West, Wilson, Yorkdale, Finch, NYC, Anywhere along Sheppard, York Mills, Lawrence, Anywhere along the Scarborough line, Kennedy, Vic Park, Warden, Main, Woodbine...pretty much anywhere in the system outside of downtown. Plenty of people do this because other people may work in Etobicoke, but their friend/spouse works downtown. It's actually quite excellent and fuel efficient when propper K&R facilities are in place. Think about it, an average diesel bus uses 1 L of fuel every 1.5-2 km. That's pathetic, and if a car can get 20-30 (40 if it's a hybrid), then it makes so much sense in suburban areas.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Thought I would calculate a total unit count and estimated population for VMC for existing residential development proposals in the area.

There are currently 6,773 units proposed, under construction, or built. At the standard apartment rate of 1.9 people / unit, you arrive at an estimated population of 13,546. The only two buildings completed today have a combined 704 units, with an estimated population of 1,338. This means that VMC can be expected to grow by 12,208 people upon build out of existing proposals (with more coming), or a growth rate of 1012%. This is likely to occur sometime around 2020-2022.

There are currently 3,814 of these units under construction, about 7,250 people, with an additional 2,255 units proposed. All units have been marketed, and the vast majority have been sold.

Assuming all commute into DTT daily, that's about 14,500 rides on the TTC. That's not bad for just the surrounding areas.

 

[robmausser]

Last I checked, RER is not a viable option now,

Yes because RER doesnt exist yet.

not everyone works at Union Station, Transferring from GO to the TTC takes a long time,

Yes because RER doesnt exist yet.

it's expensive,

Yes because fare integration doesnt exist yet

and GO actually takes longer than the subway in many instances.

Yes because electric EMU trains dont exist yet.

It takes around an hour just to take the Richmond Hill line into Union,

The Richmond Hill line isn't slated for RER. Not a good example.

while a subway would take less time, at worse just as much time from RHC, would go closer to people's work, and is FAR less expensive.

Yes because fare integration and fare by distance doesnt exist yet

 

[Leo_Chan]

Yes because RER doesnt exist yet.



Yes because RER doesnt exist yet.



Yes because fare integration doesnt exist yet



Yes because electric EMU trains dont exist yet.



The Richmond Hill line isn't slated for RER. Not a good example.



Yes because fare integration and fare by distance doesnt exist yet

Wow, lots of negative (but true) responses.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Yes because RER doesnt exist yet.
Yes because RER doesnt exist yet.
Yes because fare integration doesnt exist yet
Yes because electric EMU trains dont exist yet.
The Richmond Hill line isn't slated for RER. Not a good example.
Yes because fare integration and fare by distance doesnt exist yet

RER isn't going to happen on Richmond Hill, and the Barrie line isn't supposed to be any faster from Vaughan to Downtown. You're also extremely limited with RER downtown.
People working on College, Dundas, Queen, or even King won't see any use in waiting for a RER train that comes every 15 minutes, takes almost as long as the subway, costs more to use than the Subway, affects riders further north (ie Aurora, Barrie).

I know you say fare integration doesn't exist yet, but do you really think this is a battle Metrolinx is going to win without a lot of subsidies for local agencies like the TTC? Wouldn't you also agree that the fare integration model they are proposing hurts a lot of riders living within Toronto?

Although EMUs will decrease the wasted time associated with train acceleration, they will be stopping at about twice the number of stops. this offsets any potential future benefit of using EMUs in the RER area.

It isn't, but there's the option of extending the Yonge line to RH, which I personally do not support currently, but the point is that people choose the bus to the subway over the Richmond Hill Line because it's more convenient, and that includes a double fare. How are you going to get people off the University line and onto the barrie line at Vaughan if people are more willing to take a bus to a subway and pay 2 fares in Richmond Hill? It doesn't make sense for where they're working, as it is for a lot of people.

We don't really know the inner workings of what Fare Integration will become. There has been a lot of argument here on Urban Toronto that the subways should not be premium fares (That includes FBD within the city of Toronto). I myself agree with this sentiment, especially with the 2 hr time based transfers coming to toronto (local rides can have return trips, trips to Downtown from the suburbs will require an extra fare on return)

The real question of this all is why the TTC did make this a surface subway north of Pioneer Village and between Sheppard West and Finch West, why York Region somehow managed to stay away from subsidizing the operating costs of their portion of the subway, and why GO, YRT, and the TTC did not reach fare integration agreements far before this thing was built.

Edit: The number of stops between Vaughan (rutherford) and Union is Tripling, not doubling. (YU is being replaced by Downsview Park, plus the addition of Spadina-Front, Bloor-Lansdowne, and Caledonia, and I have a feeling a lot of these transfers are going to be painful for commuters).

 

[innsertnamehere]

The URSC is going to be receiving a big speed boost in a few years from what I recall, cutting several minutes off all. GO train trips. Regardless of RER or electrification.

 

[steveintoronto]

The URSC is going to be receiving a big speed boost in a few years from what I recall, cutting several minutes off all. GO train trips. Regardless of RER or electrification.

Yeeeaaahhh....I state with introspection at hand. There's a major impediment, albeit being discussed by Metrolinx and VIA at high levels: State of the Art signalling and control systems. Lots of talk, no action. And CBTC out of favour for surface rail with so many variables. Excellent for subway though. I'm a real skeptic on improved station through-put at Onion Station (sic) until this nation joins the modern age on signalling/control.

The real question of this all is why the TTC did make this a surface subway north of Pioneer Village and between Sheppard West and Finch West, why York Region somehow managed to stay away from subsidizing the operating costs of their portion of the subway, and why GO, YRT, and the TTC did not reach fare integration agreements far before this thing was built.

Edit: The number of stops between Vaughan (rutherford) and Union is Tripling, not doubling. (YU is being replaced by Downsview Park, plus the addition of Spadina-Front, Bloor-Lansdowne, and Caledonia, and I have a feeling a lot of these transfers are going to be painful for commuters).

Agreed with all.

 

[TransitBart]

That is false.

I like this post too. But when I read @Adjei ‘s post, I got that it was sarcasm. I think he was joking.

 

[TransitBart]

The URSC is going to be receiving a big speed boost in a few years from what I recall, cutting several minutes off all. GO train trips. Regardless of RER or electrification.

Wonderful. Why did you post that in this thread? Did I miss something here?