TOCondoGarden said:
I guess I just don't have the same enthusiasm for Toronto of yesteryear. The City was actually boring 20 years ago and downtown was only a place to work.
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Boring 20 years ago, you kiddin'? Downtown was much more fun, exciting, edgy and happening than it is today - it was for decades. Downtown was a place to come and play, live, work, be entertained and to shop. The only problems with Toronto of my youth were the drinking hours until they were extended until 2am and there wasn't anywhere near the amount of places to eat late at night like there are today. We basically had Fran's, pizza joints the Danforth & Chinatown for late night food after work, or after the clubs closed.
 
Another article from the Star (today)
Trump Hotel’s troubles mounting as sales tactics face probe
Published 42 minutes ago


By Susan Pigg Business Reporter
Developers of Toronto’s Trump International Hotel & Tower were given explicit instructions by the Ontario Securities Commission back in 2004 not to sell units in the luxe project as lucrative investment opportunities.
But buyers tell the Star they were wooed into putting down payments on pricey hotel-condos through slick marketing by rookie developer Talon International Inc. that focused largely on the project’s revenue-generating potential.
“Sales staff had actual spreadsheets. They could tell you the rate of return unit by unit, floor by floor,” said one buyer who termed those financial details “critical” to his decision to buy a $700,000 unit.
“It was very much sold as an investment (that would actually generate revenue) — there were no ifs, ands or buts,” said the investor, one of more than 50 now desperately trying to get out of deals set to close Nov. 29.
“That was pervasive throughout the marketing material.”
Lawyers for close to a dozen buyers allege that Talon’s marketing campaign violates a special exemption granted, at the developer’s request, by the Ontario Securities Commission as sales launched eight years ago.
“We are looking into this matter to determine compliance with the order and will take regulatory action as warranted,” said the commission in a statement to the Star on Monday.
Talon said through its public relations firm that the ruling “was in the usual form granted by the commission in respect of similar applications for commercial condominium units. Talon has complied with the terms of the ruling.”
The exemption is critical in that it means Talon didn’t have to meet key conditions commonly demanded by the securities commission before investment offerings can be sold to the public.
Most importantly, Talon was able to avoid filing a prospectus — a $1 million-plus document that gets reviewed by the securities commission and outlines the financials of any commercial enterprise trying to attract investors.
But the commission ruling makes clear that the exemption was granted on condition that Talon market the project’s 276 hotel-condos “primarily as first-class luxury hotel condominium units to be used for short-term transient hotel occupancy or for longer-term occupancy.”
Nothing in any of the documents prohibited buyers from flipping units for a profit on completion, as many investors have done during Toronto’s condo boom.
But the 10-page ruling stipulates that prospective purchasers “not be provided with rental or cash flow forecasts or guarantees or any other form of financial projection or commitment.”
“That (exemption) left buyers faced with very complex purchase agreements that the average person — even the average lawyer — might not be able to navigate,” said Toronto lawyer Javad Heydary.
“I don’t think we can blame the commission. They proceeded on the understanding that Talon would undertake the terms of the order.”
Heydary heads a team of eight lawyers who’ve been trying to unravel the complex purchase agreements on behalf of investors who bought through Talon sales staff or realtors to whom Talon paid commissions.
Trump not only licensed his name, which graces the top of the 65-storey project, but Trump International Hotels oversees the day-to-day running of the hotel.
At least one other lawyer is also looking at the ruling as grounds for helping clients who’ve notified Talon they want to rescind their offers on units ranging from $600,000 to well over $1 million.
About a dozen investors have talked to The Star, but on condition their names not be used because they have yet to be sued by Talon and don’t want to draw attention.
Talon has been facing an escalating buyer revolt because of fees and taxes that inexplicably skyrocketed on the units as the hotel finally opened last February, at least two years behind schedule.
A London, Ont., doctor who took part in a promotional video for the project filed a lawsuit last week seeking $750,000 in damages for “misrepresentation” unless he gets back deposits on his $913,000 hotel-condo.
Dozens of buyers are now trying to get deposits back and renege on final payments averaging more than $500,000 that are due to Talon Nov. 29.
Even buyers too frightened of the legal ramifications of walking away from deals penned up to seven years ago are finding themselves in a crippling Catch-22 — unable to sell the high-priced hotel units in a softening condo market or secure mortgages on balances due.
 
Just stopping by the thread to bask in other people's miserable stupidity. I wouldn't normally indulge the shadenfreude to this extent, but when someone else's misfortune comes as a result of misplaced respect/admiration for Donald Trump, I just can't help myself. What part of "Trump" was ever attractive or credible to anyone? Trump investors should be required to show cause why, contrary to the evidence, they are mentally competent and should not be made wards of the court.
 
Hahaha, I just saw that article and had to dig up this thread. What an absolute disaster.
 
I think the last few comments prove my earlier point. Why would anyone who lives in Toronto WANT a project to fail? Why would anyone want to feel smug that people could lose money? Just to get a dig in about Trump? To solidify some political or socioeconomic stance?

I also hear of people taking as if they WANT a condo bubble to burst. Is this due to envy of others success? Missing the boat? Or are they just sentimental about old small town Toronto, and can't accept that it's now a big city?

I sure don't have the answers. Even though I've been here a few years, some people in Toronto are still a mystery to me! :)
 
scrapergeek said:
I think the last few comments prove my earlier point. Why would anyone who lives in Toronto WANT a project to fail? Why would anyone want to feel smug that people could lose money? Just to get a dig in about Trump? To solidify some political or socioeconomic stance?

I also hear of people taking as if they WANT a condo bubble to burst. Is this due to envy of others success? Missing the boat? Or are they just sentimental about old small town Toronto, and can't accept that it's now a big city?

I sure don't have the answers. Even though I've been here a few years, some people in Toronto are still a mystery to me! :)
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The schadenfreude is because we know that these guys weren't going to make that little bit they needed to put food on their families plates; they were trying to get dirty, stinking rich. They saw an opportunity to make a fortune and when they didn't they started to whine and sue. Take the generally low opinion of Trump and the generally low opinion of guys looking to get rich quick (especially when they were already rich enough to blow $700 grand on these places) and there you go.

Seriously, at risk of sounding like a broken record, how did they think they'd get rich using the Trump name? Especially as investors. The man is constantly bankrupting others for his sake and even if he had little connection to this project I'd still have stayed far away. His name is untrustworthy and if you choose to trust it anyway, you risk getting burned bad.
 
dt_toronto_geek said:
Boring 20 years ago, you kiddin'? Downtown was much more fun, exciting, edgy and happening than it is today - it was for decades. Downtown was a place to come and play, live, work, be entertained and to shop. The only problems with Toronto of my youth were the drinking hours until they were extended until 2am and there wasn't anywhere near the amount of places to eat late at night like there are today. We basically had Fran's, pizza joints the Danforth & Chinatown for late night food after work, or after the clubs closed.
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I think you need to sober up, dude. Toronto was pretty lame in the 90s: http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/01/toronto_of_the_1990s/

But the city was far worse in the 70s: http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/10/that_time_when_toronto_was_a_city_of_parking_lots/
 
Some people made some bad investment decisions. Such is life in the free market. It's not unique to Toronto, it's not unique to Trump.

I don't get any satisfaction from anyone losing money, not even the stinking rich, as how this project performs indirectly affects the downtown core, and the city I love.

On the subject of complaining Torontonians. I moved here from England, the world capital of pessimism and whiners (or "whingers" as we call them), and I can tell you for a fact, there are some Torontonians who can give us Brits a run for our money.

On the flip side I've also met many very positive and focussed people here, who are making great changes in this city. If only people would stop comparing everything to rose-tinted (if you use that phrase?) views of other cities!
 
Celestica said:
I think you need to sober up, dude. Toronto was pretty lame in the 90s: http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/01/toronto_of_the_1990s/

But the city was far worse in the 70s: http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/10/that_time_when_toronto_was_a_city_of_parking_lots/
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Rather than accept the word of someone who was a child in the 90s and nonexistent in the 70s, why not take it from people who were actually there? Toronto was a much funkier place back in the day because it wasn't yet completely lost to our contemporary obsessions with status and money.

Old pictures of parking lots and lame magazine covers tell you nothing.

Back on topic: I do feel pity for those poor deluded souls who bought into the Trump, but there's no denying that he's a dirtbag.
 
scrapergeek said:
I think the last few comments prove my earlier point. Why would anyone who lives in Toronto WANT a project to fail? Why would anyone want to feel smug that people could lose money? Just to get a dig in about Trump? To solidify some political or socioeconomic stance?

I also hear of people taking as if they WANT a condo bubble to burst. Is this due to envy of others success? Missing the boat? Or are they just sentimental about old small town Toronto, and can't accept that it's now a big city?

I sure don't have the answers. Even though I've been here a few years, some people in Toronto are still a mystery to me! :)
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Won't somebody please think of the poor Job Creators!
 
James said:
I feel bad and it really is an unfortunate situation however I don't believe there is anyone to blame. I know of no real investor who is willing to put down any sum of money without knowing exactly what the figures work out to be (and I'm not talking about figures on a glossy marketing brochure or figures that a salesperson gives you). As an investor myself, I was very interested in the One King West project too when it was released but I shied away from it due to unfamiliarity with the hotel-condo operation and lack of track-record for this type of ambitious project. I'm quite happy to hear that there are positive ROIs for One King West and I can only hope that the balance sheet will be green for Trump Towers too, but this is yet another glaring example of people falling into the hype and visions of big dollar signs getting the better of them. Caveat emptor indeed.
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The big difference is that 1 King West went on sale 10 years ago....you could have bought a condo for $249,000 and make the equivalent profit with todays room rates. So yes, they could be profitable at this point.

Trump units are going for $900,000 and renting our for $450 a night. As one previous poster mentioned, the market has spoken and the resulting room rates are far below whats expected. Too much competition, high costs and poor economy are the culprits.

The TRUMP hotel condo is a scam, as mentioned by another poster, its a way of the developer to unload the financial burden of development costs onto private investors. Most traditional hotels are fully owned and built by the owner/operator. The Marriot and Hampton Inns don't sell their units to "investors" !

Sadly, these people were taken in by the "Trump" image and the developers got rich (1st profit) by selling a worthless piece of cr@p at a very inflated price.

Once the building is finished and registerd, Trump and "Talon Internation" make guaranteed profits (2nd profit) from the maintenance fees and occupancy hotel fees. They don't have equity in the falling condo market, nor are they responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the units since they don't own them. Its a win win situation and x2 profit model for them, but a very risky and liable investment for the owners. Sadly, many of these low brow investors wren't smart enough to figure this out.
 
dt_toronto_geek said:
Boring 20 years ago, you kiddin'? Downtown was much more fun, exciting, edgy and happening than it is today - it was for decades. Downtown was a place to come and play, live, work, be entertained and to shop. The only problems with Toronto of my youth were the drinking hours until they were extended until 2am and there wasn't anywhere near the amount of places to eat late at night like there are today. We basically had Fran's, pizza joints the Danforth & Chinatown for late night food after work, or after the clubs closed.
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Toronto has always been different, in that a lot of people have always live downtown. Not every city is like that! yes, more people live downtown now than before, but that's besides the point. Downtown used to be way more fun and lively 15 years ago. Now, unless there's an event happening, it's so much more quieter. The entertainment district used to be busy almost every night of the week!
 
wolfewood said:
The schadenfreude is because we know that these guys weren't going to make that little bit they needed to put food on their families plates; they were trying to get dirty, stinking rich. They saw an opportunity to make a fortune and when they didn't they started to whine and sue. Take the generally low opinion of Trump and the generally low opinion of guys looking to get rich quick (especially when they were already rich enough to blow $700 grand on these places) and there you go.

Seriously, at risk of sounding like a broken record, how did they think they'd get rich using the Trump name? Especially as investors. The man is constantly bankrupting others for his sake and even if he had little connection to this project I'd still have stayed far away. His name is untrustworthy and if you choose to trust it anyway, you risk getting burned bad.
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That's a great synopsis, though I think some of those people weren't trying to get 'dirty, stinking rich' but merely get in the game, make some easy money maybe not 'stinking rich money' but in way over their heads and lulled in by a mega con man.

And welcome!
 
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