If anyone thinks that condos in Toronto just 'pop up' then they must not actually live in Toronto and only visit here every few years.

5 years after the sale to Lanterra we are only starting to see demolition; then 3 more years of construction. If you want to see new residential 'pop up' then go to the suburbs to see the explosion of new subdivisions (that never make newspaper headlines because they aren't tall). Condos in TO take ages. Subdivision approvals in the suburbs are almost rubber-stamped.
 
NBGtect said:
If you want to see new residential 'pop up' then go to the suburbs to see the explosion of new subdivisions (that never make newspaper headlines because they aren't tall).Condos in TO take ages. Subdivision approvals in the suburbs are almost rubber-stamped.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry for taking this off-topic but this statement is completely untrue - the subdivision land acquisition and approvals/development process takes far longer than the high-rise process - about a decade in fact.

Let me very briefly walk you through...
  • Preliminary Planning Review
  • Phase I Environmental Site Assessment
  • Preliminary Engineering Review
  • Property Purchased by Developmer
  • Pre-consultation with municipal planning staff
  • Assembly of existing plans, reports & surveys including: archeological survey, environmental impact study, traffic study, noise study, geotechnical study, topographical survey / vegetation study, stormwater management / erosion control stiudy
  • Preliminary engineering design
  • Search registry office / boundary survey
  • Calculation & Drafting of Plan
  • Preparation of Draft Plan of Subdivision & Association Planning Documentation
  • Submission of Draft Plan Rezoning Application (Official Plan Amendment as well if necessary)
  • Submission of Draft Plan with prescribed & other info as provided by Official Plan Policy
  • Circulation of Draft Plan to Local Municipality & Regional, Provincial & Federal Agencies
  • Submission of Survey's certificate & application to property law program for registration in land titles office
  • submission of Plan to Land Boundaries Program & Registration to surveyor
  • Report by Municipal Planning Staff
  • Public Meeting by Local and/or Regional Council
  • Council approval of Draft Plan / or refusal / or approval with conditions
  • Official Plan / Zoning Amendment (potentially with conditions)
  • Notice of Adoption
  • Potential Appeals to OMB (this step alone could take a couple years)
  • Draft Plan Approval and Conditions of Draft Approval Issued
  • Official Plan Amendment / Zoning By-Laws come into force
  • Approval from land boundaries process & registration in land titles system
  • Preparation of subdivision agreement and/or front ending agreement
  • Preparation of conceptual municipal engineering design
  • Preparation of subdivision agreement schedules
  • Preparation at final engineering drawings
  • Review of engineering designs by municipality & region
  • Approval of Ministry of Environment Applications
  • Preparation of landscape design & review process
  • Utility design, engineering & approvals (gas, cable, phone, electrical)
  • Circulation of Final Plan of Subdivision
  • Monumentation of Final Plan
  • Final Plan to Registry Office & Approval
  • Subdivision Agreement Approved by Council
  • Development securities to municipality & letter of release
  • Clearing of Draft conditions
  • Letters of release by commenting agencies & approval authorities
  • Approval by Approval authority for registration of plan & final plan of subdivision
  • Registration of the Plan of Subdivision in the Land Titles Office
  • Provincial Ministry & agency approval of engineering design
  • Preparation of specifications and tendering documents / call for tenders
  • Preparation of electrical & utility tenders
  • Installation of electrical services, lighting, cable & bell
  • Construction of base municipal services
  • Preliminary acceptance of underground services
  • Submission of site plans and building permit applications
  • Development Charges Payment
  • Permits Issued
  • Construction of balance of municipal services & municipal acceptance of above ground services
  • Building (homes) construction
  • Occupancy Permits Issued
  • Final acceptance of municipal services
  • Assumption of services by council & release of balance of development securities
The generalized road map does not even include Master Environmental Servicing Plans, Conservation Authority approvals, Ministry of Environment or Ministry of Natural Resources Approvals. Sorry for the long sidebar not about Teahouse - but please don't tell me subdivisions "just pop-up" as the approval process can take over a decade (far longer than condo approval process)
 
Absolutely true...subdivisions take far longer to receive approval and to build. North Oshawa for example took 13-15 years!
 
FMCS said:
Absolutely true...subdivisions take far longer to receive approval and to build. North Oshawa for example took 13-15 years!
Click to expand...

Still seems far faster of a build-out than the relatively small acreage involved in City Place compared to all of North Oshawa. How long has City Place been going on for again? A generation? Go check out Brampton or Milton and see the explosive growth in the last 15 years. The forensic list above includes things that take longer with subdivisions of course, but the length of time to build a concrete and steel building is far longer than building the same amount of units in wood-frame construction. Don't think anyone will ever convince me that a high-rise condo in TO gets through all the approvals faster and built far quicker than a comparable subdivision in a booming place like Brampton or Milton that already has Official Plan/Secondary Plans. Of course one would pick Oshawa to refute my point!!!
 
NBGtect - the land acquisition, approvals & land development process for low-rise project is typically about a decade - whereas the actual "construction" time period to build a single family home is a bit less than a year.

High-rise contrasts in that the land acquisition & approvals process is typically in the 2-3 year range and the actual "construction" time period (depending on size and scope of the project) is typically in the 2-4 year range.

Approvals are way faster for high-rise... on the low-rise side one single item such as obtaining a certificate of approval for the storm water management plan can take 6-9 months of review (and that is only one step in the process!!) or an overall benefit permit via the Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry can in some cases take upwards of a year. I think the issue you correctly identified is that the general public only really sees the physical construction part of the process, not the years and years of negotiation and multi-ministry / municipal / regional / other agencies involved in several layers of approvals before construction even starts.
 
Mike in TO said:
I'm sorry for taking this off-topic but this statement is completely untrue - the subdivision land acquisition and approvals/development process takes far longer than the high-rise process - about a decade in fact.

Let me very briefly walk you through...
  • Preliminary Planning Review
  • Phase I Environmental Site Assessment
  • Preliminary Engineering Review
  • Property Purchased by Developmer
  • Pre-consultation with municipal planning staff
  • Assembly of existing plans, reports & surveys including: archeological survey, environmental impact study, traffic study, noise study, geotechnical study, topographical survey / vegetation study, stormwater management / erosion control stiudy
  • Preliminary engineering design
  • Search registry office / boundary survey
  • Calculation & Drafting of Plan
  • Preparation of Draft Plan of Subdivision & Association Planning Documentation
  • Submission of Draft Plan Rezoning Application (Official Plan Amendment as well if necessary)
  • Submission of Draft Plan with prescribed & other info as provided by Official Plan Policy
  • Circulation of Draft Plan to Local Municipality & Regional, Provincial & Federal Agencies
  • Submission of Survey's certificate & application to property law program for registration in land titles office
  • submission of Plan to Land Boundaries Program & Registration to surveyor
  • Report by Municipal Planning Staff
  • Public Meeting by Local and/or Regional Council
  • Council approval of Draft Plan / or refusal / or approval with conditions
  • Official Plan / Zoning Amendment (potentially with conditions)
  • Notice of Adoption
  • Potential Appeals to OMB (this step alone could take a couple years)
  • Draft Plan Approval and Conditions of Draft Approval Issued
  • Official Plan Amendment / Zoning By-Laws come into force
  • Approval from land boundaries process & registration in land titles system
  • Preparation of subdivision agreement and/or front ending agreement
  • Preparation of conceptual municipal engineering design
  • Preparation of subdivision agreement schedules
  • Preparation at final engineering drawings
  • Review of engineering designs by municipality & region
  • Approval of Ministry of Environment Applications
  • Preparation of landscape design & review process
  • Utility design, engineering & approvals (gas, cable, phone, electrical)
  • Circulation of Final Plan of Subdivision
  • Monumentation of Final Plan
  • Final Plan to Registry Office & Approval
  • Subdivision Agreement Approved by Council
  • Development securities to municipality & letter of release
  • Clearing of Draft conditions
  • Letters of release by commenting agencies & approval authorities
  • Approval by Approval authority for registration of plan & final plan of subdivision
  • Registration of the Plan of Subdivision in the Land Titles Office
  • Provincial Ministry & agency approval of engineering design
  • Preparation of specifications and tendering documents / call for tenders
  • Preparation of electrical & utility tenders
  • Installation of electrical services, lighting, cable & bell
  • Construction of base municipal services
  • Preliminary acceptance of underground services
  • Submission of site plans and building permit applications
  • Development Charges Payment
  • Permits Issued
  • Construction of balance of municipal services & municipal acceptance of above ground services
  • Building (homes) construction
  • Occupancy Permits Issued
  • Final acceptance of municipal services
  • Assumption of services by council & release of balance of development securities
The generalized road map does not even include Master Environmental Servicing Plans, Conservation Authority approvals, Ministry of Environment or Ministry of Natural Resources Approvals. Sorry for the long sidebar not about Teahouse - but please don't tell me subdivisions "just pop-up" as the approval process can take over a decade (far longer than condo approval process)
Click to expand...
Wow, in form, substance and style, this is a textbook smackdown. Impressive work.
 
NBGtect said:
If anyone thinks that condos in Toronto just 'pop up' then they must not actually live in Toronto and only visit here every few years.

5 years after the sale to Lanterra we are only starting to see demolition; then 3 more years of construction. If you want to see new residential 'pop up' then go to the suburbs to see the explosion of new subdivisions (that never make newspaper headlines because they aren't tall). Condos in TO take ages. Subdivision approvals in the suburbs are almost rubber-stamped.
Click to expand...


They most certainly are not. Nearly a decade of planning goes into subdivisions from them being just farmland to people moving in. The first plan for Queensville, north of Newmarket, was created in 1998, with the first residents moving in next summer. Seaton had its lands initially sold by the province (or rather traded for lands in the Oak Ridges Moraine) in the early 2000's, with first residents moving in early 2017. North Oakville has been in planning for many years.

Large subdivisions almost always go through rigorous review, extensive infrastructure demand planning, multiple OMB hearings, etc. before actually getting built. The only reason they seem to "pop up" is because, as you said, there is never any news on them. Most of this planning work is not easily available, and the first easy evidence of them is when construction starts 2 years before the first occupancy.

Essentially, from day of land purchase to the first resident move in for a condo is between 5 and 10 years, a subdivision is between 7 and 15.

edit: Mike in TO beat me to it. I nominate post of the week, thats a great overview of how suburbs get built that many are completely unaware of.
 
Last edited:
Benito said:
I've never seen that before, that would be cool.
Click to expand...

Look at the Hallmark Centre thread. There are pictures of the tunnel turning from Yonge to Sheppard.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top