E.B. said:
Europeans have compact cities compared to N.American cities. Using those forms of transportation are much easier. Our sprawl is what it is. We can look back with 20/20 hindsight and say we shouldn't have done it. Also, it isn't practical to ask a 60yr old person or a 8mth pregnant woman in Etobicoke to ride their bike downtown on a snowy/icy january day.
Removing parking spots causes a revenue shortfall(isn't it pathetic that parking infractions are considered revenue and that the city depends on it.) Toronto thrives on people coming in to the core. The city in it's wisdom is removing parking in and around subway stations eg Islington station, instead of building larger underground parking.

You don't have to shout "FREE!". You should know that most everyone knows that city taxes pay for freeways.
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Yes the highway is paid for by our taxes but there is not a user fee to use them so people tthink of it as free versus transit which is paid for by taxes but still requires a user fee which makes people think it costs too much. Yes European cities were madde differently but that doesn't mean that we as north Americans should say screw it this is what we have so we must continue to drive. Instead we can and are intensifying our city by building denser communities. we may not ever get to the point where someone from etobicoke will bike all the way downtown but surely we can get to the point where they can bike to transit and use it instead. When visiting my in laws in mississauga i walk maybe ten to fifteen minutes to square one. Everyone looks at me like I'm from another planet and the mall is in another country. We need to move away from this it is too far to walk or bike mentality in the suburbs. It isn't any of the residents at one bloor west fault that the streets are clogged if they have a ferrari in their garage.
 
So in other words, some of you want the North Corean way, but not trough communist dictatorship rather trough high taxation and lack of parkings. The communists didn't let my father to have a car, you want driving to be so expensive so I wouldn't be able to afford it. The only difference is that since we live in democracy I am not told what to do, but made to decide what you want me to decide on my own.
 
Zeiss said:
So in other words, some of you want the North Corean way, but not trough communist dictatorship rather trough high taxation and lack of parkings. The communists didn't let my father to have a car, you want driving to be so expensive so I wouldn't be able to afford it. The only difference is that since we live in democracy I am not told what to do, but made to decide what you want me to decide on my own.
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Correct.
 
Zeiss said:
So in other words, some of you want the North Corean way, but not trough communist dictatorship rather trough high taxation and lack of parkings. The communists didn't let my father to have a car, you want driving to be so expensive so I wouldn't be able to afford it. The only difference is that since we live in democracy I am not told what to do, but made to decide what you want me to decide on my own.
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Sums up capitalistic society about right.
 
Expecting people to take transit without offering the infrastructure and built form is 'cart before horse' thinking. If it makes sense people will do it. Why wouldn't they? In the meantime we still live in an enormously car-centric society and it makes more sense for far more people to use a car to get around efficiently. Punishing people (i.e. taking away parking etc) is not an effective way to change behaviour. Instead we need to offer incentives, i.e. more transit lines, better connectivity, more efficient services, more dense but liveable housing along transit lines etc. When transit makes sense people will use it, and gladly. This is the situation in Europe already. It is not the situation in the GTHA.

As a society we do need to commit to improved transit, it is the responsible and sustainable thing to do. Our governments need to commit to it first first though with real funding and infrastructure. Unfortunately just a cursory read of the transit threads on this site is enough to depress anybody about the lack of leadership on this issue. Improvements, yes. Still a long long way to go. In the meantime, beating people over the head cause they drive somewhere is ignorant and counterproductive.
 
Those paying this much for a unit will likely want a spot even if they aren't daily drivers. Nothing wrong with that - and besides if they do decide to drive they will have to share the road space with everyone else. Anyways, the convo should be brought back to the project at hand...

MoD
 
Tewder said:
Expecting people to take transit without offering the infrastructure and built form is 'cart before horse' thinking. If it makes sense people will do it. Why wouldn't they? In the meantime we still live in an enormously car-centric society and it makes more sense for far more people to use a car to get around efficiently. Punishing people (i.e. taking away parking etc) is not an effective way to change behaviour. Instead we need to offer incentives, i.e. more transit lines, better connectivity, more efficient services, more dense but liveable housing along transit lines etc. When transit makes sense people will use it, and gladly. This is the situation in Europe already. It is not the situation in the GTHA.

As a society we do need to commit to improved transit, it is the responsible and sustainable thing to do. Our governments need to commit to it first first though with real funding and infrastructure. Unfortunately just a cursory read of the transit threads on this site is enough to depress anybody about the lack of leadership on this issue. Improvements, yes. Still a long long way to go. In the meantime, beating people over the head cause they drive somewhere is ignorant and counterproductive.
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You are acting as if Toronto does not have sufficient transit options currently. Yes we may not be Europe, but many people have access to some very active frequent transportation options.

Our bus routes are continentally applauded for providing very frequent frequencies, planners from other American cities study our city's bus routes as examples for providing adequate and frequent transportation access to the suburbs. Our streetcars are far from historic relics, they move similar amounts of people as subways and metro lines in other cities, as will our LRT routes when complete. Our buses connect to very frequent subway lines with a new one being built on Eglinton. And we are heading towards the direction of providing 15 minute all day electrified commuter rail service on our GO lines to serve our suburbs. Our growth plan is to build more density along these transit-fed routes too.

Within the next 15 years, much of the GTA is going to have public transportation as an option and alternative to driving. We need to ensure that they make that decision to leave the car at home by making the automobile an undesirable option within our downtown core. Gradually decreasing street parking space is one a very effective way of doing it. Not to mention it opens up the road for other transportation infrastructure such as protected bicycle lanes.
 
WislaHD said:
You are acting as if Toronto does not have sufficient transit options currently. Yes we may not be Europe, but many people have access to some very active frequent transportation options.

Our bus routes are continentally applauded for providing very frequent frequencies, planners from other American cities study our city's bus routes as examples for providing adequate and frequent transportation access to the suburbs. Our streetcars are far from historic relics, they move similar amounts of people as subways and metro lines in other cities, as will our LRT routes when complete. Our buses connect to very frequent subway lines with a new one being built on Eglinton. And we are heading towards the direction of providing 15 minute all day electrified commuter rail service on our GO lines to serve our suburbs. Our growth plan is to build more density along these transit-fed routes too.

Within the next 15 years, much of the GTA is going to have public transportation as an option and alternative to driving. We need to ensure that they make that decision to leave the car at home by making the automobile an undesirable option within our downtown core. Gradually decreasing street parking space is one a very effective way of doing it. Not to mention it opens up the road for other transportation infrastructure such as protected bicycle lanes.
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That is not factually correct.

Yes, we have 'great' transit options for North American standards - awful for European/Asian standards. However, our city is large, people can live many miles from their jobs and unfortunately there is nothing you can do about that (unless you want to give people subsidies to live next to their jobs, given how expensive real estate costs are).

No 15 minute GO Transit improvement will help someone who lives in Mississauga and works in Markham or someone who has to commute 20 km (even downtown to Vaughan) the time costs alone negate any positives. Our city is physically huge, it's a sprawly, massive mess (I mean the GTA, nobody expects someone living in the 416 to only work in the 416 or vice versa).

Cars will be around for a very long time, and what will save us is automated driving one day. Half our bottlenecks are caused by drivers who quite frankly should have their license revoked.
 
WislaHD said:
You are acting as if Toronto does not have sufficient transit options currently.
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'Sufficient'? Clearly we do not or the region wouldn't be the gridlocked mess it is. I'm not suggesting we do not have transit options that make sense for some, we do and they are utilized. Again, if it makes sense to them people will use it. The problem is that it still doesn't make sense for a vast majority of people moving around within the city and region, and this is what we need to achieve if we want sustainable transit.

Appologies to AoD for another traffic detour. My last here.
 
Tewder said:
'Sufficient'? Clearly we do not or the region wouldn't be the gridlocked mess it is. I'm not suggesting we do not have transit options that make sense for some, we do and they are utilized. Again, if it makes sense to them people will use it. The problem is that it still doesn't make sense for a vast majority of people moving around within the city and region, and this is what we need to achieve if we want sustainable transit.

Appologies to AoD for another traffic detour. My last here.
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Sufficient for himself! Not thinking of the millions that have no choice but to drive to work....
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Those paying this much for a unit will likely want a spot even if they aren't daily drivers. Nothing wrong with that - and besides if they do decide to drive they will have to share the road space with everyone else. Anyways, the convo should be brought back to the project at hand...

MoD
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+100000000

I don't know why this thread turned into a war on cars for people who cant afford to live downtown. All I said was that those who have a spot downtown are less likely to drive frequently if very much at all in the case of exotics. Besides many people have condos downtown that do not even live in the country. That does not mean they don't want access to a car when they come into town. People suggested that these people would clog up the streets and I simply suggested that those in the suburbs who routinely drive 30k a year are the ones whom should be targeted not the ferrari coming out on the rarest occasions. This is no different than someone having a prius and thinking they are environmentally friendly driving 50k a year and then looking down at a SUV owner who drives 5k a year. In fact the prius driver is putting more damage in to the environment by how how much gas they are using, how many tires they are going through, how much their car is ruining the roads. Let the rich people have their toys already and stop crying that life isnt fair. We are all adults. We know life isnt fair.
 
Filip said:
That is not factually correct.

Yes, we have 'great' transit options for North American standards - awful for European/Asian standards. However, our city is large, people can live many miles from their jobs and unfortunately there is nothing you can do about that (unless you want to give people subsidies to live next to their jobs, given how expensive real estate costs are).

No 15 minute GO Transit improvement will help someone who lives in Mississauga and works in Markham or someone who has to commute 20 km (even downtown to Vaughan) the time costs alone negate any positives. Our city is physically huge, it's a sprawly, massive mess (I mean the GTA, nobody expects someone living in the 416 to only work in the 416 or vice versa).

Cars will be around for a very long time, and what will save us is automated driving one day. Half our bottlenecks are caused by drivers who quite frankly should have their license revoked.
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We aren't talking about Mississauga to Markham commutes here though, those obviously will need to be served by automobiles for the foreseeable future. We are talking about commutes to the downtown core.
 
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