Xray_Crystal_Junkie said:
Thanks for that drum. So this has no office space? When did Allied start teaming up on pure residential?
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There is a floor plan missing and there is 2 floors of commercial.
 
Bayer said:
Finally! I was hoping the city would do this. Karma, for instance, has a 3-bedroom, 1 bath layout at around 800 sq. ft. that would be appropriate in a cheap rooming house.
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How is 3 bedroom, one bath at 800sf a cheap rooming house?
I grew up in exactly such a place (family of 4). Never felt too cramped if the layout is not bad.

There are plenty of 2b2b units with around 700sf of space downtown. People really don't need that much space to have an urban life.
 
ksun said:
How is 3 bedroom, one bath at 800sf a cheap rooming house?
I grew up in exactly such a place (family of 4). Never felt too cramped if the layout is not bad.

There are plenty of 2b2b units with around 700sf of space downtown. People really don't need that much space to have an urban life.
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This is not what I would call the Canadian space standard. Only in our very largest cities are we expected to live in such tiny spaces, and even in Toronto, this trend is quite new. I would leave immediately if I were forced to live in the way you describe. Until she moved into a retirement home, my mother lived in a brand-new, fully equipped 800 sq. ft. one bedroom for $550 a month, utilities included, in a prosperous mid-sized town in Québec.
 
Bayer said:
This is not what I would call the Canadian space standard. Only in our very largest cities are we expected to live in such tiny spaces, and even in Toronto, this trend is quite new. I would leave immediately if I were forced to live in the way you describe. Until she moved into a retirement home, my mother lived in a brand-new, fully equipped 800 sq. ft. one bedroom for $550 a month, utilities included, in a prosperous mid-sized town in Québec.
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It may be that "in Toronto, this trend is quite new," but the future is rushing headlong at us. Only the upper tier of earners among us will be able to afford more. What space you can afford in rural Ontario or Quebec has zero bearing on the realities of real estate and amenities in the thriving downtown core of a large city. It's all well and good if you're of retirement age and wish to escape the city - but even then, urbanized centres and their medical infrastructure offer valid enticements for those in their senior years.

The other point I'd like to make is that, if you grew up in that sort of condensed urban reality, you wouldn't necessarilly find it at all tiny or remarkable... how would you know what you were missing if you and your friends all had more or less the same upbringing? If dense urban living is what we're embracing over the long term, future generations are not going to require the same needs for space as many of us do now - and especlally much less than what preceeding generations considered the norm.
 
^ exactly. I think Toronto is experiencing a transitional period where land in central area will be increasing expensive, and people will just have to settle for small space living. "Canadian standard" is irrelevant to central Toronto. And this trend is irreversible.

Take a look at the listing in Tokyo, Japan http://www.tokyoapartment.com/en/forsale/listing
The first page shows 16 properties in Shinjuku, central Tokyo. One is 146 sq m (at a cost of appx C$2 million, probably enough to have a Rosedale house with a nice garden). The rest range between 16 and 97 sq m, with most under 40 sq m. 16 sq m is less than 180 sq m. To say "I can't accept 800sf for a family of 4" will be laughable in cities like Tokyo, because that will be an enviable size.

I don't think Toronto will ever be that expensive and has to settle for that kind of small space, but the point is, human adapt to whatever is available/affordable to them. It is wrong to assume that the current trend of small spacing living in downtown Toronto is unsustainable - On the contrary, I believe it is the long term trend, as shown in cities such as New York or Paris. This is the kind of space one can have in prime area of a large prosperous and desirable city. If you find it unacceptable, fine, move to somewhere cheaper but it will be nowhere near Queen/Bay.

People have commented by saying that "in the future families can buy two ajacent apartments and combine them into a family sized one". I am afraid very few families can afford doing that. Condos downtown starts at $600/sf nowadays, to own two of 600 sf one bedroom units, you need $800K, and you probably need to come up with another $50-100k for "combining" (getting rid of one kitchen, knocking down walls, install doors,bathrooms). Honestly, how many families can afford that price? It is not like price will drop (I don't hold my breath for that unless something horrible happens to the Canadian economy). The more likely scenario is, families who are interested in living downtown, will just have to settle for 800sf condos.. No just downtown, anywhere close with good amenities and transit. Don't like it and want 2000 sf "traditional homes"? Move to Stuffville or Brampton and enjoy your 3-4 hour commute each day.
 
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Lenser said:
It may be that "in Toronto, this trend is quite new," but the future is rushing headlong at us. Only the upper tier of earners among us will be able to afford more. What space you can afford in rural Ontario or Quebec has zero bearing on the realities of real estate and amenities in the thriving downtown core of a large city.
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More specifically, it is in Granby, a city of 65,000, 45 minutes east of Montreal - not exactly in the boonies.

I am not sure the kinds of layouts that we are seeing are sustainable, or that they reflect what owner-occupants would actually buy if they had any choice. How different would they be if we didn't have a seriously deficient rental housing pool (quality- and quantity-wise)?
 
Granby and Montreal are not quite comparable to Toronto and, say, Burlington. I think the entire GTA is super-heated, realty-wise, and can't compare to Montreal and its relatively tamer economic status and growth projections.
 
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45 minutes driving distance in real estate can be day and night. Forest Hill is 45 minutes away from Brampton as well.

Plus, Montreal is not really some real estate hotspot. It is one of the cheapest large cities to buy a house in the entire continent. Even a small city like Ottawa is pricer I think.

Toronto has a serious deficiency in housing pool? I guess you are excluding the thousands of condos shooting up everyday because you don't consider them to be ideal places to live. The fact is, with rising land price, there won't be many new houses in the GTA and price will only get less affordable. Sooner or later (optimistically), Toronto will be like NYC or San Fran, where only the super rich can afford to buy a "home" in the city. Average people will just have to settle with more compact high/mid rise condos.
 
ksun said:
Toronto has a serious deficiency in housing pool?
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I said rental housing, not housing in general, and I was referring to dedicated rental buildings. I have been living in condos for 26 years. I am self-employed and I could move anywhere in the country tomorrow morning with no problem whatsoever. But for now, the extreme densification happening in my neighbourhood, at Bay and College, will be interesting to experience. It has been an improvement since 1988, but I suspect it is about to become a bit too much of a good thing.
 
New rental stock in the last 20 years has largely come in the form of condos being rented out, to the point that entire buildings are marketed as such.

Should 3brm demand ever rise, it will likely come in the form of new constructiob., not conversion.
 
According to RealEstateBisNow, this was one of the mixed-use projects approved by city council last week...

Council also gave the nod to a 36-storey mixed-use development at 57 Spadina Ave, just south of King Street West. The project, by Diamond Corp and Allied Properties REIT, will see the replacement of an existing two-storey Winners location (built in 1900) with 313 residential units, 18k SF of street-level retail space, and 35k SF of office space—designed by Diamond Schmitt Architects.
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http://www.bisnow.com/commercial-real-estate/toronto/2681-four-things-to-talk-about-at-your-companys-oktoberfest-party/
 
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