[crs1026]

The Kitchener trains should run express from Bramalea (Brampton, in time) and have a local service from there to Union....similar to how LSE/LSW have express/inner trains.Maybe the Airport deserves an exception. Once this is in place, UPE should revert to being an airport-centric service.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

The Kitchener trains should run express from Bramalea (Brampton, in time) and have a local service from there to Union....similar to how LSE/LSW have express/inner trains.Maybe the Airport deserves an exception. Once this is in place, UPE should revert to being an airport-centric service.

If they were to do this, they should continue to stop at Bloor, so that people from Kitchener not heading to Union but other places (like U of T) can access the subway. And of course at Weston or Mount Dennis so they can access the UP.

 

[reaperexpress]

NO!

People coming from west of Union might want to get off at Weston to switch to the quickest and cheapest rail connection to the airport....and Bloor has always been a busier drop off station than pick up station in the a.m. (reverse in p.m.) indicating people are using the station to access the BD subway.

Is it though? Last time we talked about this, the quickest and cheapest option from Kitchener to the airport was Brampton Transit's route 115 Airport Express, which you can catch just outside Bramalea or Malton stations. Even once UP is fully integrated into the GO fare system, it would be slightly cheaper to take the Brampton bus. A Ride to GO is $0.75, but the surcharge for trains into Pearson Airport is $1.30.

It's not surprising that bringing UP into the GO fare system has decimated short-haul ridership into Union. The multiple-unit trains accelerate more quickly than GO trains, which gives them shorter travel times. And many GO runs are within a couple minutes of an equivalent UP run.

Here's the morning rush, as of April 2016:

For example, look at the 7:07 departure from Weston. If you wait a minute for the UP train, you can get to Union 5 minutes earlier.

 

[TOareaFan]

Is it though? Last time we talked about this (pre fare integration), the quickest and cheapest option from Kitchener to the airport was Brampton Transit's route 115 Airport Express, which you can catch just outside Bramalea or Malton stations. Even once UP is fully integrated into the GO fare system, it would be slightly cheaper to take the Brampton bus. A Ride to GO is $0.75, but the surcharge for trains into Pearson Airport is $1.30.

Couple of things...

1. Can't see a large number of people in Kitchener/Guelph/Georgetown switching off a train to a semi-express Brampton bus...even if they were aware of its existance.
2. That Brampton bus runs on 1/2 hour frequencies....so if you assume an average wait time outside those GO stations (in potentially inhospitable environments) of 15 minutes as opposed to 7.5 minutes in a decent station like Weston....I think your speed answer favours Weston as a transfer point (currently) for GO passengers to airport.

 

[reaperexpress]

Couple of things...

1. Can't see a large number of people in Kitchener/Guelph/Georgetown switching off a train to a semi-express Brampton bus...even if they were aware of its existance.
2. That Brampton bus runs on 1/2 hour frequencies....so if you assume an average wait time outside those GO stations (in potentially inhospitable environments) of 15 minutes as opposed to 7.5 minutes in a decent station like Weston....I think your speed answer favours Weston as a transfer point (currently) for GO passengers to airport.

1. Plenty of people switch off the subway onto an express TTC bus to the airport, so it's not absurd to think people would do the same with GO and Brampton Transit if they were aware of the service. To play devil's advocate, I don't see a large number of people travelling 10km past Malton to Weston, then back-tracking 11km to Pearson Airport, when they could just take a bus 4 km from Malton to Pearson.

2. The frequency of the Brampton bus does indeed leave a lot to be desired. I think that if we do skip Weston on more Kitchener GO trains, we should also improve the headway on route 115 to every 15 minutes at rush hour. Perhaps Metrolinx could provide the net operating costs, given that they would be seeing some cost savings and revenue increases as a result of faster Kitchener train service.

 

[TOareaFan]

1. Plenty of people switch off the subway onto an express TTC bus to the airport, so it's not absurd to think people would do the same with GO and Brampton Transit if they were aware of the service. To play devil's advocate, I don't see a large number of people travelling 10km past Malton to Weston, then back-tracking 11km to Pearson Airport, when they could just take a bus 4 km from Malton to Pearson.

2. The frequency of the Brampton bus does indeed leave a lot to be desired. I think that if we do skip Weston on more Kitchener GO trains, we should also improve the headway on route 115 to every 15 minutes at rush hour. Perhaps Metrolinx could provide the net operating costs, given that they would be seeing some cost savings and revenue increases as a result of faster Kitchener train service.

If GO was inclined to do that...they would/should be more inclined to just have a GO bus waiting at Malton to meet every train that comes in on that line (EB or WB) that extends the train trip to the terminals at Pearson....then you would have a transfer that is analogous to your subway-bus transfer.

 

[crs1026]

If they were to do this, they should continue to stop at Bloor, so that people from Kitchener not heading to Union but other places (like U of T) can access the subway. And of course at Weston or Mount Dennis so they can access the UP.

I was thinking (but didn't type it - sorry) that there would be a Pearson station with its own people mover to the terminal. Extend the Link to Malton, or have a free shuttle bus, or something. I'd hate to have a backtrack-on-UPE solution as it's not very user friendly and 15 minute service for that transfer is not going to cut it.

Bloor is interesting. I can see the merits....but do we stop at Mount Dennis too? And Liberty (when DRL is built?). Are you sure Bloor is the transit link we need to emphasise? Can't stop at them all. I'm not arguing against Bloor, just being cautious.

Weston needs to be downgraded to a modest commuter stop similar to Etobicoke North. The express trains should blow by both.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

as nfitz pointed out....if nothing else, Bloor is the most direct link to a university campus that has, what, 60k fulltime students in their undergrad programs...not to mention all the other reasons someone might want to be on Bloor (or is that subway in the wrong place )

 

[reaperexpress]

Bloor is interesting. I can see the merits....but do we stop at Mount Dennis too? And Liberty (when DRL is built?). Are you sure Bloor is the transit link we need to emphasise? Can't stop at them all. I'm not arguing against Bloor, just being cautious.

Weston needs to be downgraded to a modest commuter stop similar to Etobicoke North. The express trains should blow by both.

Here's how I see the UP Express being integrated into GO local services a few years from now.

Off-Peak Service Map:

Many additional express services would operate during peak periods

Weston Subdivision Track Map:

I didn't include Bloor as a stop on the all-day regional service, as the U of T is quite accessible via the Eglinton and University subway lines. Worst case scenario for people on Bloor is that they transfer to the local service for one stop.

And of course not every train needs to have the same stopping pattern. In my scenario, there's an all-day regional service stopping at Mount Dennis but not Bloor, and a peak-only express service stopping at Bloor but not Mount Dennis.

 

[crs1026]

A stop at Liberty is desirable as part of RER.

- Paul

 

[Jonny5]

Here's how I see the UP Express being integrated into GO local services a few years from now.

I will offer the extreme nit-pick that you have combined Burlington and Aldershot stations, only because I know anyone who could make such a fantastic map would want to have that level of accuracy!

 

[TOareaFan]

I will offer the extreme nit-pick that you have combined Burlington and Aldershot stations, only because I know anyone who could make such a fantastic map would want to have that level of accuracy!

well, if we are going to point out minor errors in the map, Georgetown is also a VIA station.

 

[reaperexpress]

I will offer the extreme nit-pick that you have combined Burlington and Aldershot stations, only because I know anyone who could make such a fantastic map would want to have that level of accuracy!

well, if we are going to point out minor errors in the map, Georgetown is also a VIA station.

This map is not a representation of the current situation, it is a representation of a hypothetical future situation. Those items are changes, not errors. And to be clear, these things are besides the point. I just wanted to illustrate a possible express/local stopping pattern with local service only going as far as Bramalea (as announced by Metrolinx), and I happened to already have this fantasy map on my computer. It is a variation of one I already posted in the fantasy maps thread.

Explanation of changes in this map:
Electrification in the first phase is only slated to go as far as Burlington, since GO only owns the track that far. As a result, off-peak local services will terminate there during the initial RER rollout seen here. Since we'd want bus connections to have access to local service, we would extend them from Aldershot to Burlington. There would subsequently be no point in stopping GO Regional or VIA trains there, especially if the parking lot is already full from the morning commuter trains. Aldershot would be a peak-period park and ride station, which is why it is not shown on this off-peak service map. You may notice that Stoney Creek, Acton, Bradford, East Gwillimbury, King City, Rutherford and Caledonia are similarly absent. Unlike other GO stations, these peak-only park-and-ride stations could have free parking.

In order for VIA to remain competitive despite the introduction of all-day regional GO service, it needs to move upmarket to distinguish itself. To position itself as a higher-speed premium service, some local stations would be dropped, including Georgetown, Malton, Grimsby and Guildwood. Oshawa is not shown because I figure Pickering makes a better east-end station given that the Oshawa/Bowmanville extension will bypass the current VIA station. I'm also well aware that VIA has no plans to serve Hamilton North.

Speaking of which, I'm also aware that Hamilton North station is actually called West Harbour, Dundas West is actually Bloor, Barrie Allandale is actually Allandale Waterfront, Brampton Central is actually Brampton, and Stoney Creek is actually Confederation. I changed their names to ones I like better.

 

[steveintoronto]

This map is not a representation of the current situation, it is a representation of a hypothetical future situation.

To quote the Americans: "Outstanding!" As much as it covers vast territory, the one real 'Eureka' aspect for me is the depiction of the complex junction on the Weston Corridor at the CN York branch-off. I've stared at it a hundred times going through there on my daily Guelph commute while still living there, and could never remember the exact details of the switch arrangements. That schematic clarifies it brilliantly.

Question: The Airport Spurs are flat junctions. Rumour has it you'd posted a schematic here previously displaying flyover(s) to clear that junction. If so, can you reference/link to where I could find that, or will a simple description referred to this schematic suffice?

A curious point to add: Last time I checked, UPX allows dogs on board on a leash. Bloor Station has signs on the door, and guess what's banned?

8.9.
ANIMALS

Each guest may take with him or her, free of charge and subject to the
conditions below, a max
imum of two dogs, cats or other small animals
provided that they do not endanger or inconvenience guests or staff.

Dogs must be kept on a
leash
at all times unless in a basket or pet carrier.
Dogs without
leashes
, cats, birds and small animals must be car
ried in an
enclosed basket, cage or pet carrier. This must be rigid and not open (to
prevent escape) and the animal must be able to stand and lie down in
comfort
https://www.upexpress.com/AboutUP/TermsAndConditionsV1

 

[reaperexpress]

To quote the Americans: "Outstanding!" As much as it covers vast territory, the one real 'Eureka' aspect for me is the depiction of the complex junction on the Weston Corridor at the CN York branch-off. I've stared at it a hundred times going through there on my daily Guelph commute while still living there, and could never remember the exact details of the switch arrangements. That schematic clarifies it brilliantly.

The track map does show the rough layout of the York junction, but there are many changes too, mostly adding tracks. I generally made up the locations of the crossovers, and I generally including only the ones that would be used in day-to-day service.

Question: The Airport Spurs are flat junctions. Rumour has it you'd posted a schematic here previously displaying flyover(s) to clear that junction. If so, can you reference/link to where I could find that, or will a simple description referred to this schematic suffice?

Here is the page you're looking for. It also features a "current" track layout map that is a bit more accurate, though I must admit that that particular junction lacks the accuracy of the rest of the map. In reality there is a very short stretch of single track on the Weston sub just east of Bramalea.