[Prometheus The Supremo]

Prometheus,

As WH pointed out its not up to Metrolinx on which tracks get buried (unless we are willing to spend significant $$$s to expropriate the corridors). I don't find the solution all that onerous on the community. They didn't get a tunnel. But they did get a trench which accomodates most of their concerns about noise. They have most of their streets open to traffic and all their streets open to pedestrians. Even electrification which they demanded, was a long term goal anyway. All that has been accomplished is to move up the in-service date; which could well mean that some other community may loose out on better services if there is a significant net cost for the conversion. Nevertheless, I think most of us support electrification so I doubt there are too many concerns there.

I am upset at this group because they seem to refuse any reasonable compromise. They are offered a trench that accomodates most of their concerns. But they insist on a tunnel…which of course is not feasible when there will be mixed traffic (diesel and electric) operating on that line. To meet their goals of a tunnel we would have to electrify Georgetown and Bolton to the very last stop, and buy expensive electric trainsets to bolster rush hour services, hardly an economically prudent proposition. They are losing only one street which has a nearby alternate 175m away, which is hardly onerous in a car; and pedestrians remain unimpacted by the street closure. Nope, they continue to demand that every street remain open to traffic. And note that many of these demands come as Weston looks set to become a mini-transport hub (st. clair line, 2 GO train lines, Blue 22) which is sure to vastly increase the importance of Weston, bring in jobs, residents and development. Yet, they continue to demand the perfect solution with zero compromise. Indeed they are insisting that no new GO service be implemented until electrification is completed (which could take years). While I am sympathetic to many of their concerns, at some point that NIMBY label starts to look awfully authentic.

what do you think of the proposals i mentioned that i think should be implemented?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

When they were doing planning to bury the Union Station rail corridor, the freight railways determined that in order to operate full tonnage freights, a maximum 1% grade was desirable. I would guess that the same policy remains today.

i had a feeling it was around 2%. does that translate around 45.52 feet length for every 1 foot of drop in elevation?

what is the minimum clearance required for a CP freight train to make it under a bridge? i found a online source for a bridge that states its clearance at 23.62 feet but i don't know if that's a standard throughout.

so by this figure and above numbers, the sloped length of track would have to be around 1075 feet (327.66 meters) before it reaches the bridge clearance.

i guess that would mean the length would have to be doubled to around 655m from 327m right?

 

[kEiThZ]

what do you think of the proposals i mentioned that i think should be implemented?

If the CP tracks can be acquired for a reasonable price, I'd support their inclusion in the trench. And I am with you on Lawrence going over the trench instead of under. Though if the question is simply one of aesthetics (as opposed to a necessary replacement) perhaps we could hold off on it. When it comes to John Street though; no dice. It's a residential street with an alternate crossing less than a minute away by car. I see no reason to spend extra building a full blown road and pedestrian bridge. It's quite simply an unnecessary expense. And a tunnel (not part of your recommendations but a WCC demand) is out of the question in my books. Too expensive and not warranted at all.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

If the CP tracks can be acquired for a reasonable price, I'd support their inclusion in the trench. And I am with you on Lawrence going over the trench instead of under. Though if the question is simply one of aesthetics (as opposed to a necessary replacement) perhaps we could hold off on it. When it comes to John Street though; no dice. It's a residential street with an alternate crossing less than a minute away by car. I see no reason to spend extra building a full blown road and pedestrian bridge. It's quite simply an unnecessary expense. And a tunnel (not part of your recommendations but a WCC demand) is out of the question in my books. Too expensive and not warranted at all.

would the CP tracks need to be acquired though? CP would be getting the elimination of 3 level crossings, elimination of a bridge to maintain plus rail infrastructure renewal for the length of the trench. that sounds like a sweet deal.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Then it certainly seems curious that they didn't sign on. What bugs me the most now though is this contention that there should be no service improvements or new services (Blue 22) till the corridor is electrified. Can't they accept the commitment to electrify and let services commence?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

^ Then it certainly seems curious that they didn't sign on. What bugs me the most now though is this contention that there should be no service improvements or new services (Blue 22) till the corridor is electrified. Can't they accept the commitment to electrify and let services commence?

i don't know if they're against any new GO service improvements in the corridor 'till electrification comes. it could seem like it though since blue 22 and GO expansion were tied together like they were. there are things happening though such as the west toronto diamond grade separation in the meantime.

 

[RedRocket191]

i don't know if they're against any new GO service improvements in the corridor 'till electrification comes. it could seem like it though since blue 22 and GO expansion were tied together like they were. there are things happening though such as the west toronto diamond grade separation in the meantime.

Interpret as you see fit:

"Any move toward electrification is good, but I don't want them to be studying this while they're installing diesel," said Mike Sullivan, a representative with the coalition.

"The diesel plans have to be put on hold while the electrification plans proceed. If they need to be preceded by a study, let's have the study. Let's not continue with the wrong plan while we study how to do the right plan," he said.

http://www.thestar.com/article/640319

If the opposition is to diesel, period, then the quote implies opposition to GO enhancements.

 

[waterloowarrior]

part 2 of the draft EPR and the june open house schedule is online
http://www.metrolinx.com/gsse/default.aspx

 

[vegeta_skyline]

would the CP tracks need to be acquired though? CP would be getting the elimination of 3 level crossings, elimination of a bridge to maintain plus rail infrastructure renewal for the length of the trench. that sounds like a sweet deal.

Not gonna happen.
The CP line through Weston (Mactier sub)is CP's mainline connecting southern Ontario to western Canada. Needless to say CP isn't going to be selling off this vital asset anytime soon.

This line won't be trenched because of the 2% grade that it would create. 2% is not an insurmountable grade for freight train to overcome. The problem is in order to overcome such grades another engine would be needed. Adding an extra engine on a freight train adds to the expense of running the train. Basically CP is not about to consent to building a structure that is going to cost them money over the long term (and the short term, to cover a share of the costs of building the structure). It just doesn't make business sense.

Don't get me wrong here, i'm not defending CP by any means, just stating the obvious. I don’t believe that freight traffic (much of which contains large amounts of dangerous goods) should even be traveling through large population centers like Toronto. Unfortunately the railways have lot of power and leeway in this country to do as they please.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Not gonna happen.
The CP line through Weston (Mactier sub)is CP's mainline connecting southern Ontario to eastern Canada. Needless to say CP isn't going to be selling off this vital asset anytime soon.

are you sure you're not confusing mactier sub with the north toronto sub? the mactier sub isn't busy.

 

[RedRocket191]

are you sure you're not confusing mactier sub with the north toronto sub? the mactier sub isn't busy.

It is their mainline to northern Ontario and western Canada, as well as the lead to their large intermodal terminal in Vaughan. Busy or not, it is a vital link in their network.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Not gonna happen.
The CP line through Weston (Mactier sub)is CP's mainline connecting southern Ontario to eastern Canada. Needless to say CP isn't going to be selling off this vital asset anytime soon.

This line won't be trenched because of the 2% grade that it would create. 2% is not an insurmountable grade for freight train to overcome. The problem is in order to overcome such grades another engine would be needed. Adding an extra engine on a freight train adds to the expense of running the train. Basically CP is not about to consent to building a structure that is going to cost them money over the long term (and the short term, to cover a share of the costs of building the structure). It just doesn't make business sense.

Don't get me wrong here, i'm not defending CP by any means, just stating the obvious. I don’t believe that freight traffic (much of which contains large amounts of dangerous goods) should even be traveling through large population centers like Toronto. Unfortunately the railways have lot of power and leeway in this country to do as they please.

what if they used a 1% grade instead?

It is their mainline to northern Ontario and western Canada, as well as the lead to their large intermodal terminal in Vaughan. Busy or not, it is a vital link in their network.

you're right. sorry about that. i got confused about something.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

sorry I think the confusion may have been caused on my part, meant to say western Canada, not eastern. my bad

1% could be done and would probably eliminate the need for any extra power. But that will double the length of the corresponding approaches. Suffice to say the costs will be driven up massively. No doubt CP will play hard-ball and demand that metrolinx pay for the majority of it.

Such an arrangement would also depend on how much of a disruption this option would pose to their freight traffic while the trench is u/c, most of which is highly time-sensitive.

 

[urbanfan89]

As I've suggested elsewhere, perhaps Metrolinx could take over the CN York Sub and CP North Toronto Sub and pay to reroute CP freight trains onto the York Sub while freeing North Toronto for real GO service.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

As the story goes,
once upon a time...
The rail industry in Canada was in such dire straights and there were talks of a mergers between CP & CN. If that had actually transpired its likely that many of CP’s lines would have been in little use today and could of easily accommodated increase commuter traffic (all day GO trains on the Milton line and a mid-town GO train). However that of course never came to pass and the rail industry in Canada has experiences quite the resurgence over the last decade. The CN Halton & York subs are not capable of handling the added traffic that would occur as a result of detouring CP trains along the line. Never mind the fact that there are no existing connections between CP & CN were all of their mainlines meet (Milton, Vaughan or Scarborough all tracks are grade separated with no interchanges).