[smallspy]

I understand cutting Weston. But why Mount Dennis and not Bloor?

You misunderstand, they aren't cutting stations. There will be two half-hourly services - one stopping at Bloor and Weston, and one at Mt Dennis. They can't stop at Mt Dennis until the station is ready, however.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

The key detail for me is simply the fact that the Georgetown South project was concluded and UPX opened *nine years* ago….. there has been tons of time to finish the fourth track, add the stations, etc. to implement full GO service on the line… but ML is still playing catchup even today.

ML has unarguably been lollygagging with the completion of 2WAD Go service. There is still no end in sight for the fourth track, Woodbine station, etc

We can debate the service plan for UPX - personally, I don’t think that frequent all-stops service is unmarketable - but we would have a whole different debate if there were already a 15-minute local GO service to Bramalea in place.

There is a very good business done by UPX at Bloor, and if that load is now added to every second train, those trains will be that much more crowded…. Hardly an improvement.

- Paul

 

[Bojaxs]

The key detail for me is simply the fact that the Georgetown South project was concluded and UPX opened *nine years* ago….. there has been tons of time to finish the fourth track, add the stations, etc. to implement full GO service on the line… but ML is still playing catchup even today.

ML has unarguably been lollygagging with the completion of 2WAD Go service. There is still no end in sight for the fourth track, Woodbine station, etc

We can debate the service plan for UPX - personally, I don’t think that frequent all-stops service is unmarketable - but we would have a whole different debate if there were already a 15-minute local GO service to Bramalea in place.

There is a very good business done by UPX at Bloor, and if that load is now added to every second train, those trains will be that much more crowded…. Hardly an improvement.

- Paul

Can MX utilize a fourth track on the Toronto portion of the Kitchener line if they still haven't got a third track running through Brampton? Isn't Bramalea just going to be jammed full of GO trains?

 

[dowlingm]

The train was Union-Pearson Express. Right there in the name. The Bloor and Weston stops were added later but part of the motivation was presumably to address the moaning (led by a local NDP politician) that "dirty diesels" (no, really) were passing every 15 minutes and killing people in Weston where they stood. Then the economy tanking (and the irritating-to-some persistence of Porter/YTZ) meant the UPXs were empty and fares were cut sufficiently to make it attractive to commuters who didn't want to ride the bus to Lawrence West or the subway to St George.

The other issue we're going to see is Westoners complaining that the UPX express trains crawl through because Metrolinx won't run full speed past the high platforms so why won't they just stop...

 

[T3G]

The name is meaningless. Line 2 is called the Bloor-Danforth line, but it also serves station not under Bloor or Danforth Avenues. Express doesn't have to mean a super express that serves no intermediate stops.

As stated before, if the time savings are a mere 2 minutes, either it wasn't a very good express to begin with, or the intermediate stops aren't a big deal.

 

[crs1026]

Can MX utilize a fourth track on the Toronto portion of the Kitchener line if they still haven't got a third track running through Brampton? Isn't Bramalea just going to be jammed full of GO trains?

Not needed west of Wice (the junction where the UPX line branches off into the airport).
From there to Halwest (railway jct with CN at Bramalea) it’s currently two tracks with subgrade and signalling for a third (and maybe a fourth, can’t remember) already roughed in.
Bramalea station now has ample platform capacity for GO. A very simple thing to upgrade that segment.
If it were my railway and I had super human powers, I would build for 15 minute 2WAD plus half hourly express plus VIA all the way to Mount Pleasant, as terminating 2WAD at Bramalea is only half a loaf for the Brampton urban area… but we bave to remember that CN is the landlord and freight throughput needs to be accommodated properly for the long term. Maybe ML will shed some light on their design for that stretch eventually. But none of that impacts UPX.

- Paul

 

[Bojaxs]

As stated before, if the time savings are a mere 2 minutes, either it wasn't a very good express to begin with, or the intermediate stops aren't a big deal.

Yes, but is the time saving of only 2 minutes due to the fact that the UPX trains have to slow down through stations with high platforms? If the UPX could travel at a consistent top speed from Union to Pearson, would we still be talking about a time saving of only 2 minutes?

 

[T3G]

Yes, but is the time saving of only 2 minutes due to the fact that the UPX trains have to slow down through stations with high platforms? If the UPX could travel at a consistent top speed from Union to Pearson, would we still be talking about a time saving of only 2 minutes?

Doesn't matter, the reality on the ground is such that it's only 2 minutes for whatever reason.

Unless ML could be convinced to drop the 16 km/h speed limit (good luck with that), we must argue within the parameters such as they are, not what we'd like them to be. So knowing that the service, as presently existing, will trim only 2 minutes off the travel time, but screw over passengers at the intermediate stations, I fail to see what possible benefit could come of it.

 

[dowlingm]

Yes, but is the time saving of only 2 minutes due to the fact that the UPX trains have to slow down through stations with high platforms? If the UPX could travel at a consistent top speed from Union to Pearson, would we still be talking about a time saving of only 2 minutes?

You're still stopping the train, opening the doors, waiting for some clown to get his roller suitcase caught in a gap or the closing doors etc. The trains have to be able to complete the journey in time to maintain a clockface schedule, and all the while competing with more GO trains inbound to various Weston Sub/USRC pinch points.

Bear in mind also that TTC will be adding service (or at least adding a route - not sure what the implications for Lawrence West service will be) from Weston to Pearson via the 901 Express Bus

 

[Bojaxs]

Doesn't matter, the reality on the ground is such that it's only 2 minutes for whatever reason.

Unless ML could be convinced to drop the 16 km/h speed limit (good luck with that), we must argue within the parameters such as they are, not what we'd like them to be. So knowing that the service, as presently existing, will trim only 2 minutes off the travel time, but screw over passengers at the intermediate stations, I fail to see what possible benefit could come of it.

Of course it matters. How does it not matter? You're argument is that ML can't be made to change their minds. Silly argument. I'm sure we can get the Minister of transportation to send a sternly worded email to Vester, telling him to speed up the trains through the stations or find another job.

 

[felix123]

You misunderstand, they aren't cutting stations. There will be two half-hourly services - one stopping at Bloor and Weston, and one at Mt Dennis. They can't stop at Mt Dennis until the station is ready, however.

Dan

So Mt. Dennis will see 30-minute frequency?
News articles are reporting that the new service will switch between non-stop and all-stops, but there will again be no non-stop service as of whenever Mt. Dennis opens.

It seems like what would make sense here is a service increase and a fare increase for those who want to take a 15 min service to Pearson from any station, vs a connection via GO.

I wonder if there is any hope for new trainsets that can accommodate the current platform doors, since IIRC the current rolling stock is both problematic and more importantly, discontinued. One thing I hope for is that we don't abandon the spur and replace it with a JFK-esque transit terminal that requires another connection via a link train (or similar). It would be great to invest in fixing whatever makes service so slow on the spur. Then we could have a pricier express train and a cheaper line 5 extension option. More dignified than that awful Kipling bus, which seems to get more unhinged every year, yet still an option for every budget.

Edit: Looks like I was mistaken on the discontinued part.

 

[T3G]

Of course it matters. How does it not matter?

For the reason I already stated - we are dealing with facts here, and not fantasy scenarios.

IF Metrolinx could be convinced to change their safety rules, it would be a discussion worth revisiting. No such thing has occurred, so no, it doesn't matter.

I'm sure we can get the Minister of transportation to send a sternly worded email to Vester, telling him to speed up the trains through the stations or find another job.

Why don't you try contacting the Minister of transportation and see where that gets you? Please keep us in the loop as what results you achieve.

 

[Bojaxs]

No such thing has occurred, so no, it doesn't matter.

You don't see the irony in this statement, do you?

"The conversation has never been had, so it's not worth pursuing."

uhm... so let's have the conversation?

I could understand your argument if we were talking about physical limitations regarding infrastructure. But you're basically telling me the only reason that the UPX trains travel slow through stations is due to the people in charge unwilling to budge. As if people can't be fired or removed from their positions. Quite easy to resolve such matters. Just need to be heavy handed with these people.

 

[T3G]

You are conflating two things.

The "conversation" that "has never been had" is not in fact a conversation at all, it's a requirement for Metrolinx to do something. We can discuss til the cows come home about how fast we think trains should run, but, as we have seen from countless discussions about the inane speed rules on the streetcar network, no amount of complaining about it has done anything.

Therefore, having a "conversation" is on the same level as wishing for a unicorn and world peace.

 

[smallspy]

The train was Union-Pearson Express. Right there in the name. The Bloor and Weston stops were added later but part of the motivation was presumably to address the moaning (led by a local NDP politician) that "dirty diesels" (no, really) were passing every 15 minutes and killing people in Weston where they stood. Then the economy tanking (and the irritating-to-some persistence of Porter/YTZ) meant the UPXs were empty and fares were cut sufficiently to make it attractive to commuters who didn't want to ride the bus to Lawrence West or the subway to St George.

What is with the fixation on the terminology?

Last I checked, the UPX was the fastest way to get from Union to Pearson. It's still probably the fastest way to get from Bloor & Dundas West to the Airport, too. That in itself makes it an express - when compared to other modes.

The fact it has no stops or all of the stops is irrelevant if it is faster than anything else.

The other issue we're going to see is Westoners complaining that the UPX express trains crawl through because Metrolinx won't run full speed past the high platforms so why won't they just stop...

This is a valid concern, one that management within Metrolinx themselves pointed out. Regardless of whether they see the folly of it, they're still going ahead with it.

Dan