[Dan416]

I would really question how feasible it is to fit heavy rail, 2 light rail lines, a busway, and the airport people mover into such a small space and how splitting that capacity 5 ways makes sense.



That plan has dropped off the radar. They have significantly expanded the south end of T3 and the T3 parking garage.

I don't think it's off the radar completely, but it's been pushed so far back that it's not worth envisioning right now. The GTAA had all these grand visions pre-911, but only now they're recovering traffic at Pearson so the need to (A) expand T1 and (B) subsequently demolish T3 to make space for an even MORE expanded T1 has subsided.

 

[Rainforest]

Extending PeopleMover to Woodbine might be convenient for those arriving from Kitchener or Georgetown. But the Woodbine hub will be hard to access from pretty much anywhere in Toronto, except by train. And if people board the train anyway, they prefer it go right into the terminal.

Even those going to Terminal 3 and having to transfer, woul likely prefer to do so on the airport grounds rather than at Woodbine.

IMO the best solution is the train connection from Union to T1, but with more frequent stops: all existing stops and possibly new stops at Eglinton, St Clair, and Dufferin / Queen.

And if the ARL stops at Woodbine, then riders from Kitchener can transfer there, too.

 

[Rainforest]

Also, wonder if it is possible to use the extension of Finch LRT as new PeopleMover (serve both terminals and the reduced-rate parking lot). That would create a direct connection to Rexdale and Spadina subway line, and one-transfer connection to York U. With proof-of-payment system, the ride can be free within the airport boundaries.

 

[Darwinkgo]

I don't think it's off the radar completely, but it's been pushed so far back that it's not worth envisioning right now. The GTAA had all these grand visions pre-911, but only now they're recovering traffic at Pearson so the need to (A) expand T1 and (B) subsequently demolish T3 to make space for an even MORE expanded T1 has subsided.

I always thought the plan was just to fill the gap between the two terminals to unify them - unless something is terribly wrong with the T3 building in and of itself, why would you tear it down when you still have plenty of room to expand T1 towards the old T2.

 

[EnviroTO]

Extending PeopleMover to Woodbine might be convenient for those arriving from Kitchener or Georgetown. But the Woodbine hub will be hard to access from pretty much anywhere in Toronto, except by train. And if people board the train anyway, they prefer it go right into the terminal.

Finch West LRT will go to Woodbine Live! which is right next to the Georgetown line. Currently there is a bus terminal hub at Westwood Mall which could be refocused at the Woodbine/Malton PeopleMover terminus. The Air Rail train will not be all stops so even for people along the line between the airport and Union Station the PeopleMover option provides better service. In addition both GO and VIA can operate their easterly lines to extend beyond Union to the airport much like VIA currently does with some of its trains which reach Aldershot from Montreal. In the more distant future there would be nothing preventing GO or VIA running a Niagara - Hamilton - Milton - Georgetown - Brampton - Airport - Union service. VIA already has Sarnia - London - Kitchener - Guelph - Union service and has toyed with Windsor - London - Kitchener - Union service. The PeopleMover gives the flexibility of all these options, while the Air Rail spur only delivers service to downtown.

The PeopleMover can also deliver much lower operational costs because it is fully automated. That means with a minor subsidy it could be free to use, or charge a small fare for outgoing passengers and probably break even. This means that even for people coming from downtown the choice would be $5.55 with perhaps another $1 to ride the PeopleMover, or $25 to take the air rail which if you put in all the stops you are talking about wouldn't be any faster than the GO which costs $5.55.

Even those going to Terminal 3 and having to transfer, woul likely prefer to do so on the airport grounds rather than at Woodbine.

Why? You just transferred to the Air Rail at Woodbine, now you are at T1 after watching T3 pass by in your right window, and now you need to transfer to a PeopleMover to go to T3. Why would anyone prefer that. A station at Woodbine or Malton wouldn't be designed to be an open air platform with wind blowing you away while you wait in solitude. It would be a transportation hub with Finch West LRT, Brampton Transit, Mississauga Transit, TTC, GO, VIA, and the People Mover.

 

[EnviroTO]

The other piece is the cost differences for groups or commuters. There are many people working at the airport and often people going to the airport are not alone.

From Union:
Group of Four People: AirRail $200/round trip, GO+PeopleMover $44.40+$8=$52.40/round trip.
Someone working at the airport: AirRail $1040/mo, GO+PeopleMover $183.00+$41=$224/mo.

I can tell you right now that if I am taking my family at the airport I am not going to pay an extra $200 to take the family to the airport and back (in addition to whatever cost it is to get the family down to Union station to catch this thing). Additionally if I am a baggage handler at the airport I'm not going to surrender $1040 for AirRail service.

 

[Rainforest]

The other piece is the cost differences for groups or commuters. There are many people working at the airport and often people going to the airport are not alone.

From Union:
Group of Four People: AirRail $200/round trip, GO+PeopleMover $44.40+$8=$52.40/round trip.
Someone working at the airport: AirRail $1040/mo, GO+PeopleMover $183.00+$41=$224/mo.

But will the cost gap be that big? The difference between the two options is in the connection from Woodbine to T1 (PeopleMover vs GO trains). The much longer Union - Woodbine section will be served by GO trains anyway, and they need to be more frequent than the current Brampton trains.

Finch West LRT will go to Woodbine Live! which is right next to the Georgetown line. Currently there is a bus terminal hub at Westwood Mall which could be refocused at the Woodbine/Malton PeopleMover terminus.

Finch West LRT will be the only decent TTC connection to Woodbine hub. Travelling to that hub there by Lawrence, Wilson, Kipling or whatever bus would take a lot of time, and reliability is an issue. For those arriving with Finch West LRT, ideally the LRT should go to both T3 and T1, and replace the PeopleMover (if this is technically possible).

The Air Rail train will not be all stops so even for people along the line between the airport and Union Station the PeopleMover option provides better service. In addition both GO and VIA can operate their easterly lines to extend beyond Union to the airport much like VIA currently does with some of its trains which reach Aldershot from Montreal. In the more distant future there would be nothing preventing GO or VIA running a Niagara - Hamilton - Milton - Georgetown - Brampton - Airport - Union service. VIA already has Sarnia - London - Kitchener - Guelph - Union service and has toyed with Windsor - London - Kitchener - Union service. The PeopleMover gives the flexibility of all these options, while the Air Rail spur only delivers service to downtown.

Number of stops for the Union - Airport link is a matter of management decision. You can make it non-stop, or all-stop ... or stop at Woodbine only, still enabling the above connections.

Why? You just transferred to the Air Rail at Woodbine, now you are at T1 after watching T3 pass by in your right window, and now you need to transfer to a PeopleMover to go to T3. Why would anyone prefer that. A station at Woodbine or Malton wouldn't be designed to be an open air platform with wind blowing you away while you wait in solitude. It would be a transportation hub with Finch West LRT, Brampton Transit, Mississauga Transit, TTC, GO, VIA, and the People Mover.

Well, for those arriving from the west and heading to T3, PeopleMover (or extension of Finch LRT) is better indeed, it requires one transfer instead of two.

But for those arriving from the east (416) and having to make one transfer either way, it might be psychologically more appealing to transfer at T1 than at Woodbine. If they are at T1 already, they can find out what is going on, ask staff for directions, and in case of a common delay within the airport, they can expect their flights delayed until they get on. If they transfer at Woodbine and something goes wrong with the last leg of their trip, the airport might ignore them.

 

[EnviroTO]

But will the cost gap be that big? The difference between the two options is in the connection from Woodbine to T1 (PeopleMover vs GO trains). The much longer Union - Woodbine section will be served by GO trains anyway, and they need to be more frequent than the current Brampton trains.

The infrastructure costs which would be cheaper for a PeopleMover are only a small part of the price discrepancy. The more important consideration is operational costs per passenger. The cost of running a train is a combination of the staffing costs, the energy costs, and the equipment costs. The PeopleMover being automated, electric, and lightweight is very cheap to operate. A train is far more expensive to operate, but with a GO Train you divide those costs by far more end users, whereas an AirRail service has more staff, higher marketing costs, and additional real estate requirements and has less users to cover those costs (in addition to splitting the higher infrastructure costs amongst the users).

Finch West LRT will be the only decent TTC connection to Woodbine hub.

No, there are GO Trains and VIA Rail there as well as the TTC. That is the whole point. It is right off the 427 so GO buses would be very practical at that location as well.

Number of stops for the Union - Airport link is a matter of management decision. You can make it non-stop, or all-stop ... or stop at Woodbine only, still enabling the above connections.

At what cost and how does the transfer benefit the end users which would likely out number the origins from Union station?

But for those arriving from the east (416) and having to make one transfer either way, it might be psychologically more appealing to transfer at T1 than at Woodbine. If they are at T1 already, they can find out what is going on, ask staff for directions, and in case of a common delay within the airport, they can expect their flights delayed until they get on. If they transfer at Woodbine and something goes wrong with the last leg of their trip, the airport might ignore them.

This is the airport People Mover... if you are at the airport People Mover station you are at the airport for all practical purposes. Being the airport people mover the wayfinding would be all about getting around the airport and finding the right terminal. There would likely be monitors showing the flight status at the station because the primary user base of the station would be people going to the terminals. If you park in long term parking are you worried the airport might ignore you because you aren't at the terminal?

 

[Rainforest]

The PeopleMover being automated, electric, and lightweight is very cheap to operate. A train is far more expensive to operate, but with a GO Train you divide those costs by far more end users, whereas an AirRail service has more staff, higher marketing costs, and additional real estate requirements and has less users to cover those costs (in addition to splitting the higher infrastructure costs amongst the users).

But you still need more trains between Union and Woodbine to make it a useful airport link. They should run every 15 or at least 20 min and this is more frequent than the present-day Brampton - Georgetown service. The cost of extra trains adds to the cost of extending PeopleMover.

No, there are GO Trains and VIA Rail there as well as the TTC. That is the whole point. It is right off the 427 so GO buses would be very practical at that location as well.

All those connections are mostly for places within GTA but outside Toronto. From within Toronto, the only two practical ways to get to Woodbine will be GO train or Finch West LRT. For their passengers, extending those lines into the airport means one less transfer when going to T1 at least (and in case of Finch LRT, perhaps T3 as well).

At what cost and how does the transfer benefit the end users which would likely out number the origins from Union station?

The cost of stopping at Woodbine is probably minimal, if the station will be added anyway.

Regarding the end users, ideally the ARL should service all stops en route. The number of transfers for groups of riders:

1) Union, plus much of Toronto south of Eglinton - to T1: ARL = 0, PeopleMover = 1
2) Union, plus much of Toronto south of Eglinton - to T3: ARL = 1, PeopleMover = 1
3) GTA via Woodbine - to T1: ARL = 1, PeopleMover = 1
4) GTA via Woodbine - to T3: ARL = 2, PeopleMover = 1
5) North-west of Toronto via Finch LRT: depends on whether Finch LRT goes beyond Woodbine.

So, there is no difference for groups 2 and 3. Group 1 is better off with ARL, group 4 with PeopleMover; but 1 likely outnumbers 4.

 

[EnviroTO]

But you still need more trains between Union and Woodbine to make it a useful airport link. They should run every 15 or at least 20 min and this is more frequent than the present-day Brampton - Georgetown service. The cost of extra trains adds to the cost of extending PeopleMover.

Yes, it would be more frequent that the current Brampton-Union service (i.e. service every 30 minutes during rush hour and none otherwise), the AirRail link would be even more frequent that the current AirRail service (i.e. none). The 20min frequency Brampton service will cost marginally more than 20min frequency AirRail service, but the costs would be divided by more people. Cheaper fares and more destinations on the route equate to greater number of passengers to divide the operational costs over.

 

[cacruden]

It is funny reading this thread....

Today, Bangkok's high speed rail service to airport started full operation. As a baseline a public taxi from the airport downtown is around 350 baht (11 - 12 CAD).

The high speed train (express version) will cost 100 baht .... or 150 baht after the luggage checkin at the city terminal is operational.

The non-high speed one - which takes 30 minutes (not 15 minutes) because it stops at all stations between costs between 15 baht and 40 baht (15 flat til end of year).

Oh, and they forwarded the first of four proposed high speed rail link proposals to cabinet today (the first one goes around 600km to the north-east (Isan) from Bangkok.

 

[ssiguy2]

If they want a downtown to Pearson route they should just build a Monorail and have stations at major cross streets. It would save having to transfer. Monorails are cheap to build, reliable, quiet, have subway capacity and could be fit into the Weston rail line.

 

[nfitz]

If they want a downtown to Pearson route they should just build a Monorail and have stations at major cross streets. It would save having to transfer. Monorails are cheap to build, reliable, quiet, have subway capacity and could be fit into the Weston rail line.

That seems a bit obsessive to build a monorail in a grade-separated right-of-way.

 

[Swarley]

If they want a downtown to Pearson route they should just build a Monorail and have stations at major cross streets. It would save having to transfer. Monorails are cheap to build, reliable, quiet, have subway capacity and could be fit into the Weston rail line.

I hear they have one in North Haverbrook too!

 

[cacruden]

That seems a bit obsessive to build a monorail in a grade-separated right-of-way.

Especially since it has already been pretty well decided that the rails used will be shared with other traffic like GO - using only one of those rails for traffic to and fro the airport will only screw up GO....