[Reecemartin]

While I concur that wayfinding at Finch could be better, I had no trouble navigating it on my own at the age of 10, visiting a friend in Richmond Hill, when I lived in East York.

'Madness' just seems very overblown to me.

I knew that at the time I needed a GO Bus to head up Yonge, I think it was Route C if I recall.

I followed the GO sign to the GO Bus, and to my route. Easy Peasy.

The idea that people need to memorize 15 agency logos is incorrect. Finch might be the worst spot of that with YRT, BT, GO, and TTC all in one spot, but its still only 4.

And anyone arriving at Finch only needs to know the logo of the system they wish to board, which presumably they figured out on a transit app before arriving at the station.

****

At any rate, even if there were better language around 'Regional buses this way" or such, when you get to the terminal you still have agencies and their logos.




Again. I've spent time in Europe where a busy station may have a 1/2 dozen carriers arriving/departing a station.

In Toronto, we have 2 for all intents and purposes (UP Express would make it three, but the intent is to fold it into GO anyway)

How much terminology do we need for GO or VIA? I think the agency logos suffice quite well.

It’s bad, whether or not you were able to navigate it at 10…. I’ve just said I’ve found it confusing myself, I’m not 10! Did I find my way? Yes, but it should not have to be a challenge!

The point is playing devils advocate for bad wayfinding makes no sense - it’s inaccessible and confusing for most people, most of the changes getting thrown around do not have a massive cost.

I am not explicitly referring to the “T” but yes the logos are a big problem! I can look at Google Maps and no the logo might actually not be there! So the logo is not a good thing for me to navigate based on, and the bus numbers are duplicated so it’s also a big problem! If they were not you could have a sign that said buses XXX-> this way.

 

[Reecemartin]

Is there a specific problem you know of that you wish to see corrected?

I don't know of any wayfinding situation anywhere in the world that would be improved by having a generic T logo in place of the incumbent transit agency. Much like the transit agency logo, it doesn't tell you what type of transit, or what routes actually stop there.

And if you want to go on about the duplicate numbered routes, you might also acknowledge the confusion that would arise from renumbering routes that have had the same number for decades. This would affect much more people than the handful of shared stops within the city.

I’m not talking about the T (though many systems do have a unified indicator so I’m not sure why people seem to be suggesting that’s a bad idea - when the actual issue is the generic unoriginal indicator chosen) !

I was responding to your assertion that it’s ok if things are bad and confusing because people will find a way! That’s a bad way of looking at what should be an intuitive and seamless wayfinding system!

I’ve mentioned several problems, because it’s not a single thing. Wayfinding for thé region is a mess because in large part it’s not unified so everyone is doing their own thing. As a transit rider I’d love to be able to have the exact same signage whether I’m at Scarborough Centre or at Square one or at Union. That’s how it works in many great transit cities.

 

[Northern Light]

It’s bad, whether or not you were able to navigate it at 10…. I’ve just said I’ve found it confusing myself, I’m not 10! Did I find my way? Yes, but it should not have to be a challenge!

The point is playing devils advocate for bad wayfinding makes no sense - it’s inaccessible and confusing for most people, most of the changes getting thrown around do not have a massive cost.

I am not explicitly referring to the “T” but yes the logos are a big problem! I can look at Google Maps and no the logo might actually not be there! So the logo is not a good thing for me to navigate based on, and the bus numbers are duplicated so it’s also a big problem! If they were not you could have a sign that said buses XXX-> this way.

We'll just have to respectfully disagree about this.

I didn't find it difficult or challenging at 10; I don't doubt there are people who do, yourself included, and I'm not being insulting in any way. I'm merely saying I can't see why you find it a challenge; nor do I think the solutions proposed are useful.

Changing the names/numbers of stations and routes known by hundreds of thousands of people to accommodate a small minority who may or may not find navigation any easier post-change just doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

I'm happy to support those improvements in wayfinding I specifically noted above.

 

[Reecemartin]

We'll just have to respectfully disagree about this.

I didn't find it difficult or challenging at 10; I don't doubt there are people who do, yourself included, and I'm not being insulting in any way. I'm merely saying I can't see why you find it a challenge; nor do I think the solutions proposed are useful.

Changing the names/numbers of stations and routes known by hundreds of thousands of people to accommodate a small minority who may or may not find navigation any easier post-change just doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

I'm happy to support those improvements in wayfinding I specifically noted above.

Lots of cities have changed route names, riders were ok! We’ve changed routes before and it’s been fine. People endlessly tell me whether by email, in person, or in comments that Torontos wayfinding (Finch included is confusing) I’ve experienced it first hand!

 

[Northern Light]

I don’t know, I find the suggestion that I am just in some small minority of people who find it confusing when you suggest it just isn’t and that you got in when you were a child pretty insulting.

Reece, you're being oversensitive. There was no insult intended, I told my story ( a real one, of a real me, because, well, it's real, no less so, or moreso than your own experience)

Lots of cities have changed route names, riders were ok! We’ve changed routes before and it’s been fine. People endlessly tell me whether by email, in person, or in comments that Torontos wayfinding (Finch included is confusing) I’ve experienced it first hand!

I'm not suggesting the world will implode. I'm suggesting it's a nuisance and a cost for which I see very little benefit and I await evidence over anecdote in support of same.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Solution: we put a sign under the GO and YRT logos, that say "buses to York Region/regional buses". Do this at all multi-agency terminals.

There. Problem solved.

 

[T3G]

Lots of cities have changed route names, riders were ok! We’ve changed routes before and it’s been fine. People endlessly tell me whether by email, in person, or in comments that Torontos wayfinding (Finch included is confusing) I’ve experienced it first hand!

Sorry, but I find this to be a shockingly hollow, borderline offensive justification for route changes. If you're going to start messing with names, numbers that have been set in stone over decades, you'd better have a far, far, far more compelling justification for doing so than "people survived previous changes".

In fact, I find your posts to be something of a contradiction. On the one hand, you push for clear, easy to read wayfinding signage (you'll get no disagreement from me here, but I find the hooplah about signage in Toronto of all places to be much overblown), but on the other hand, you're advocating for any duplicate numbered routes to be renumbered? What about the tens of thousands of people who already know the service by one identity?

I find the concern about duplicate route numbers doesn't really bear out with reality. I have spent my entire adult life working in customer service, I am well aware that the average person is shockingly dim, but the behaviour you are insinuating exists is beyond the realm of comprehension. I'm not aware of there being any routes at all that share a number that run on the same corridor, at any rate the amount of routes for whom this is true must be at the absolute bare minimum; therefore, you must be trying to tell me that there are people going to Long Branch GO, getting on MiWay's route 23 Lakeshore thinking they're getting on the TTC's 23 Dawes; that there are people getting on the 35 Jane bus thinking they're getting on MiWay's 35 Eglinton; that people are boarding the GO 21 Milton bus in search of the 21 Brimley in Scarborough, that people are at York University searching for the 501 Queen streetcar and getting on Brampton's 501 ZUM Queen; that people board the 92 Woodbine South bus thinking it's going to take them to Oshawa, as the GO bus 92 would. I find this notion to be inconsistent with reality - after all, anyone with two brain cells to rub together would research where it is that they want to go and how to get there, and would clue in, on arrival at Long Branch GO, that they are not, in fact, at Main Street Station. And if such a person miraculously, wonderously, does exist, why should we spend public monies on trying to make it so that person would not be confused by such a base concept, instead of expecting them to have some level of awareness of the world around them? You cannot be serious.

Furthermore, in the suburbs, lots of people are occasional transit riders. What do you think would cause more confusion - a hypothetical strawman of a person who has difficulty distinguishing Queen and Yonge from York University, or the large group of occasional riders who find themselves needing to use transit, only to make their way to the stop and find that their local bus, by which identity they have known it for generations, is no more?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Easy way out of that route naming issue - slap a letter in front denoting the agency providing it. T9, M10, Y3, O2, G11, etc.

AoD

 

[T3G]

Easy way out of that route naming issue - slap a letter in front denoting the agency providing it. T9, M10, Y3, O2, G11, etc.

AoD

I think in all honesty even that would cause quite a bit in terms of problems. Having to reprint every single agency map, redo every single bus stop, reprogram every single destination sign... and could lead to legibility issues. How much smaller would the font have to be to house, say, T110A for Islington South?

 

[MisterF]

Is there a specific problem you know of that you wish to see corrected?

I don't know of any wayfinding situation anywhere in the world that would be improved by having a generic T logo in place of the incumbent transit agency. Much like the transit agency logo, it doesn't tell you what type of transit, or what routes actually stop there.

This is true the way that Metrolinx has implemented the T, using it as an identifier for all types of transit. But other cities have created something similar for rapid transit only, which doesn't appear at bus or streetcar stops. The U in Berlin, the roundel in London, the down arrow in Montreal, the O in Ottawa, and the M in countless other cities all do tell you what type of transit it is. They all mean only one thing.

While I concur that wayfinding at Finch could be better, I had no trouble navigating it on my own at the age of 10, visiting a friend in Richmond Hill, when I lived in East York.

That's fine, but a lot of people are easily confused. When you're in a subway station you don't know and you're looking for a bus it's only logical to follow a sign that points you to buses. There are clearer ways to direct people. There shouldn't be any ambiguity about whether or not buses means buses.

 

[CanadianJedi1983]

i dont see any problems with signage in stations, at finch it's clear which way to the ttc buses and which way to GO YRT and Others and once outside where the GO and YRT all the stops have clearly marked numbers of which buses serve them and where they go from there such as "91 Baywiew or 2 Milliken"

 

[Willybru21]

This is interesting, one of the future proofed staircases that was added for the expanded platforms had its covers removed, the staircase in one of them already exists and leads up to nothing right now, and the other one is just being used for storage.

 

[trtcttc]

i dont see any problems with signage in stations, at finch it's clear which way to the ttc buses and which way to GO YRT and Others and once outside where the Go and YRT all the stops have clearly marked numbers of which buses serve them and where they go from there such as "91 Baywiew or 2 Milliken"

I think it’s fine the way it is but inconsistency is bad. If they want to use agency names, they should not have signs that say “busses” that only lead to some busses and not others. If they want to use agency names, it should be standardized. And that falls on Metrolinx to define a provincial standard with clear guidelines that all the smaller agencies can follow.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

And that falls on Metrolinx to define a provincial standard with clear guidelines that all the smaller agencies can follow.

except their solution is not something that anyone outside of them wants to use because they don't see the need for a random extra symbol to be put at the stops for no reason other than a "wayfinding expert" told metrolinx that they needed that.

 

[T3G]

except their solution is not something that anyone outside of them wants to use because they don't see the need for a random extra symbol to be put at the stops for no reason other than a "wayfinding expert" told metrolinx that they needed that.

Not only that, but given what a mess the signage is at Union station (in the parts under Metrolinx's authority; much worse than anything the TTC has got), I'm not sure Metrolinx has anything useful to say to us on the wayfinding front.