And let's not forget that the Terms of Reference for the DRTES pretty much asked them to come up with reasons why the DRL should NOT be built.
 
Markster said:
How so?

It's been a while since I've seen that document.
Click to expand...

"... capacity improvements to the existing rapid transit network are [already] planned over the next several years.
Expanding rapid transit capacity is a critical element in ensuring the continued health and vitality of the downtown area. The improvements into the downtown area will assist in responding to future growth but there has been no comprehensive study of the adequacy of these current plans, or an assessment of additional opportunities to enhance rapid transit into the downtown.

"Given the above, the purpose of the Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study (DRTES) is to:

- Assess the need for additional rapid transit capacity to serve the downtown core given the capacity improvements already planned by TTC and GO and recognizing forecast land use and ridership scenarios;
- Assess alternative strategies to accommodate the forecast demand including the costs and benefits associated with various scenarios composed of the following elements:
(a) The construction of new rapid transit lines such as the previously-proposed Downtown Rapid Transit (DRT) line;
(b) Expanded GO Rail capacity (including additional GO stations in the City of Toronto);
(c) Improvements in streetcar services to enhance shorter-distance transit accessibility in the downtown; and ..."

Plenty of opportunities to say DRL is not needed. But these things do not always go as planned. Witness GO electrification.
 
k10ery said:
"... capacity improvements to the existing rapid transit network are [already] planned over the next several years.
Expanding rapid transit capacity is a critical element in ensuring the continued health and vitality of the downtown area. The improvements into the downtown area will assist in responding to future growth but there has been no comprehensive study of the adequacy of these current plans, or an assessment of additional opportunities to enhance rapid transit into the downtown.

"Given the above, the purpose of the Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study (DRTES) is to:

- Assess the need for additional rapid transit capacity to serve the downtown core given the capacity improvements already planned by TTC and GO and recognizing forecast land use and ridership scenarios;
- Assess alternative strategies to accommodate the forecast demand including the costs and benefits associated with various scenarios composed of the following elements:
(a) The construction of new rapid transit lines such as the previously-proposed Downtown Rapid Transit (DRT) line;
(b) Expanded GO Rail capacity (including additional GO stations in the City of Toronto);
(c) Improvements in streetcar services to enhance shorter-distance transit accessibility in the downtown; and ..."

Plenty of opportunities to say DRL is not needed. But these things do not always go as planned. Witness GO electrification.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, that can be twisted as "we have examined every other opportunity, including ATO on Yonge, expanded GO service, and improved streetcar service - but all those measures are not sufficient ..."
 
On the topic of York Region's stance on how the extension will manage over-capacity...

I've already stated countless times that if the extension is made, the TTC intends to turn back an empty train at Finch station. This alone would help alleviate a huge burden on the other stations further south down the line that are currently reaching capacity because it will mean a fresh train for the riders to hop on; something that they currently cannot do with the current system.

Not only will less people flood to Finch station (meaning if they decide to turn back at Finch but still allow riders to hop on at that station, it would still mean a huge decrease in riders at that stop), it would mean that instead of waiting for 2 or 3 trains to pass before they can maybe sneak onto a train, they'd only have to wait a maximum of one train... if that.

So every time I hear the whining about the capacity of the existing stations being overloaded being used as an excuse to not build the extension, I cringe. Just another bunch of selfish anti-growth dramatics.
 
xtremesniper said:
On the topic of York Region's stance on how the extension will manage over-capacity...

I've already stated countless times that if the extension is made, the TTC intends to turn back an empty train at Finch station. This alone would help alleviate a huge burden on the other stations further south down the line that are currently reaching capacity because it will mean a fresh train for the riders to hop on; something that they currently cannot do with the current system.

Not only will less people flood to Finch station (meaning if they decide to turn back at Finch but still allow riders to hop on at that station, it would still mean a huge decrease in riders at that stop), it would mean that instead of waiting for 2 or 3 trains to pass before they can maybe sneak onto a train, they'd only have to wait a maximum of one train... if that.

So every time I hear the whining about the capacity of the existing stations being overloaded being used as an excuse to not build the extension, I cringe. Just another bunch of selfish anti-growth dramatics.
Click to expand...

That's fine for the morning rush hour, but what about the afternoon rush hour when everyone at the downtown stations are heading north? Do you really want the platforms to be even more full with people waiting there because "oh this train isn't my train"?

I think your scenario would be fine in the morning rush hour, but in the afternoon rush hour, send them all up to Richmond Hill, that way you don't have people waiting on busy platforms.
 
I would hope that people would take the first train they can get on to get out of downtown, and then switch to the Richmond Hill bound one somewhere north of Eglinton.

But that's assuming rational behaviour.
 
gweed123 said:
That's fine for the morning rush hour, but what about the afternoon rush hour when everyone at the downtown stations are heading north? Do you really want the platforms to be even more full with people waiting there because "oh this train isn't my train"?

I think your scenario would be fine in the morning rush hour, but in the afternoon rush hour, send them all up to Richmond Hill, that way you don't have people waiting on busy platforms.
Click to expand...

Good point.

I honestly don't know. They're planning to do the same thing on the Spadina-York extension so I guess they'll live and learn when they start service. People who want to go to Vaughan are going to have to actually pay attention to the end destination of the train. This is something that Torontonians haven't had to deal with on subway lines for a long time.

I think the only time riders had to pay attention to end-point signs were for the brief period when some Bloor-Danforth trains would ride the southern part of the Yonge-University "U" so that people wouldn't need to transfer at Bloor station. It was a novel idea but it created too much of a mess.

Regardless, this is something we're going to have to get used to because it's how transit systems in other cities work. When I visited Boston, you really had to pay attention to the destination signs even if you were riding the subway because the routes actually fork down the line into 3 distinct end-points. Yes, a fork to 3 end points on the same line, and yet somehow they manage.
 
There is no big need to keep an eye for the train's destination sign, because Steeles and Steeles West is just going to be another "short turn" station and even if you get on the wrong train, you can still be able to get off and wait for the appropriate train to come
 
Amy Rose said:
There is no big need to keep an eye for the train's destination sign, because Steeles and Steeles West is just going to be another "short turn" station and even if you get on the wrong train, you can still be able to get off and wait for the appropriate train to come
Click to expand...

Some people prefer to have one solid trip without a needless transfer while heading in the same direction. For those, keeping an eye on the destination sign is important. It's a personal preference more than anything else. A lot of people would be miffed about having to be ushered off a train to wait for the next one (that could very possibly be packed with people).

And for those who love to sleep, get lost in a video game / book, or blast music in their ear drums, no amount of audible alerts are going to be enough to get those people off the train... but that's another issue altogether.
 
The solution is simple. Just get on the correct train in the first place. Then you can sleep all the way home.
 
Or they can announce:
"This is a Richmond Hill Centre train, this train will terminate at Richmond Hill Centre"
"This is a Steeles West train, this train will terminate at Steeles West"

MTA does this with their newer trains which have speakers on the exterior to announce the destination as passengers get on and off the train.

Will be looking forward to see whether the TTC intends to have a 3-track station (2 side platforms and 2 island platforms or 2 island platforms).
 
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