[BMO]

The subway will not only improve service on the main transportation corridor (Yonge) but it will also help YRT better gear and cater it's service in southern York Region. Currently almost all routes in south-central York Region must make the trek south along Yonge street towards Finch. This is not only redundant (duplicating the service multiple times over) but also a waste of resources (having multiple buses and drivers on one stretch instead of various different ones). Extending the line north into York Region and to Highway 7 will provide a perfect back-bone allowing YRT route to be directed towards the multiple northern stations as opposed to all being focused on one station in Toronto. This ultimately means less congestion for Toronto residents from York Region Buses, but also a superior bus transit service in York region where multiple routes can actually run more frequently with the same resources because the distance to a subway stop will be dramatically reduced.

 

[gweed123]

I'm surprised by how high demand on this project is! They're predicting peak demand levels higher than a DRL, which I find counter-intuitive to say the least.

I do think this has more promise than a beefed up GO line. You would have to S-Bahnify (double track, electrify) like 35km of the Richmond Hill Line to get frequent service to Richmond Hill Center. Obviously subway is more expensive per km, but since you would have to upgrade nearly 5x the amount of track I can't see any clear cost advantage, and stations beyond Richmond Hill clearly will never justify anything more than a handful of peak period trains.

The SBahned Richmond Hill Line would then still have lower ridership due to lack of feasible 416 stations, and would probably be more 'peaky' (ALL ridership to Union), producing lower utilization rates.

The way things have played out it seems like York Region will get the bulk of its rapid transit from the YUS Lines into Vaughan and Richmond Hill. Maybe the Stouffville line has more potential for SBahnification, but Barrie & Richmond Hill don't seem capable of much.

Sbahnification is a great way of describing it. Like I said before, there are some spots where stations can be moved slightly, and some spots where different tracks can be used in order to bisect more local rapid transit routes. If a viable Richmond Hill GO REX line is going to be implemented, those changes need to be made, compared to what the line currently is.

The subway will not only improve service on the main transportation corridor (Yonge) but it will also help YRT better gear and cater it's service in southern York Region. Currently almost all routes in south-central York Region must make the trek south along Yonge street towards Finch. This is not only redundant (duplicating the service multiple times over) but also a waste of resources (having multiple buses and drivers on one stretch instead of various different ones). Extending the line north into York Region and to Highway 7 will provide a perfect back-bone allowing YRT route to be directed towards the multiple northern stations as opposed to all being focused on one station in Toronto. This ultimately means less congestion for Toronto residents from York Region Buses, but also a superior bus transit service in York region where multiple routes can actually run more frequently with the same resources because the distance to a subway stop will be dramatically reduced.

It also means that buses from Highway 7 and further north can pull into a pre-planned fully integrated transfer station, instead of an ad-hoc station like there currently is at Finch. Pedestrian flows both into and within the stations could be greatly improved.

 

[diminutive]

Sbahnification is a great way of describing it. Like I said before, there are some spots where stations can be moved slightly, and some spots where different tracks can be used in order to bisect more local rapid transit routes. If a viable Richmond Hill GO REX line is going to be implemented, those changes need to be made, compared to what the line currently is.

I guess I'd question whether a Richmond Hill GO REX is really needed. You could make it semi-viable, but the cost would be higher than simply extending the Yonge line. You would have to double track and electrify 35km just to get to RHC, plus build a number of new stations (e.g. Don Mills). And beyond RHC, Gormley hardly justifies S-bahn service.

If we just built the Yonge extension to RHC, the Richmond Hill line could run direct from Gormley and beyond to downtown. Though, given that there isn't much else up there, the line could just as easily be converted to buses (being right next to the 404...).

Or, maybe the Barrie Line could make a 3 mile jog to Bloomington and continue directly without stopping until Union. That could speed it up and make the Barrie service more popular.

 

[gweed123]

I guess I'd question whether a Richmond Hill GO REX is really needed. You could make it semi-viable, but the cost would be higher than simply extending the Yonge line. You would have to double track and electrify 35km just to get to RHC, plus build a number of new stations (e.g. Don Mills). And beyond RHC, Gormley hardly justifies S-bahn service.

If we just built the Yonge extension to RHC, the Richmond Hill line could run direct from Gormley and beyond to downtown. Though, given that there isn't much else up there, the line could just as easily be converted to buses (being right next to the 404...).

Or, maybe the Barrie Line could make a 3 mile jog to Bloomington and continue directly without stopping until Union. That could speed it up and make the Barrie service more popular.

I agree. I think what would work best on that line, at least for the foreseeable future, is diesel DMU with strategically placed passing tracks in order to run 30 min frequencies outside of peak, and around 10 min frequencies during peak. That, plus added and relocated stations, should be enough for that line for the foreseeable future.

The only lines IMO that really need GO REX are Lakeshore East + West, a Brampton-Markham line, and the Milton line (assuming they can squeeze it in there and work it out with CP).

 

[Memph]

I agree. I think what would work best on that line, at least for the foreseeable future, is diesel DMU with strategically placed passing tracks in order to run 30 min frequencies outside of peak, and around 10 min frequencies during peak. That, plus added and relocated stations, should be enough for that line for the foreseeable future.

The only lines IMO that really need GO REX are Lakeshore East + West, a Brampton-Markham line, and the Milton line (assuming they can squeeze it in there and work it out with CP).

Is it at all feasible to have a transfer station at Danforth along the Richmond Hill line? Maybe with escalators and a tunnel? If it is feasible, it would probably get a lot of use as a faster alternative to going through Bloor-Yonge for people heading to Southern parts of Downtown.

 

[gweed123]

Is it at all feasible to have a transfer station at Danforth along the Richmond Hill line? Maybe with escalators and a tunnel? If it is feasible, it would probably get a lot of use as a faster alternative to going through Bloor-Yonge for people heading to Southern parts of Downtown.

It would be a pain in the ass transfer, and I doubt very many people would use it, especially once the DRL is in place.

Eglinton on the other hand has some potential. If the line is rerouted along the former CPR routing along the west side of Don Mills, with a station at Leslie & Eglinton, it could get some decent usage.

 

[jamincan]

I think GO REX service to Richmond Hill could potentially act as an express service of sorts of the Yonge line. While extending the Yonge line might be more practical (and should be done imo), it has the cost of funnelling even more people onto an already heavily used line. The merits of a GO REX line besides providing a shortcut from York Region to downtown is that it diverts traffic off of the Yonge line and can potentially divert traffic heading toward the Yonge line by connecting to the Sheppard, Eglinton and DRL lines.

 

[drum118]

Since people talk about doing branch lines and this ties into what I said about the DRL to TTC at the last meeting, how about running an RHC Line off the DRL at Eglinton?

You can still run the RH line as is and add the DRL to it. This way you will bury the idea of the Yonge Line extension north of Steeles for the next 50 years or so.

You build the tunnel to accept 3 tracks for DD trains with the centre track being use as express/bypass/skip track.

The RHC folks would then have a choice of trains to get them to the city core or along the route. It would be full fare integration to allow riders to use TTC service and something long over due for the GTA. It would cut the travel time down some what depending on the final location of the DRL in the city core. Keep it away from Union Station.

I find the number very inflated, as the numbers aren't there on opening day come the old 2017 date now. It will be about 2022 before the DRL would be in service at this time, but more like 2025.

If 3,000 people drive to Finch from York Region which is on the high side and 800 using VIVA Blue, you are only moving them to RHC and may have a peak load going north at Peak Time of 1,800-2,200 come opening date. To jump to the 14,000 figure in just over 10 years is not going to happen unless there is a major gas shortage. Best number I have come up with for the Yonge Line is only under 8,000 going one way at Peak time come 2031 and that pushing it.

Here is a photo I took in Stockholm that has branch line service using X55 3 car articulate trains running in 1, 2 or 3 sets units.

 

[jaycola]

How does improved train service at Richmond Hill help with the issue of hundreds of busses traveling the section of Yonge between Finch and Steeles? How does improved train service help commuters in the northmost part of Toronto and those in Thornhill? Ought they travel north on Yonge some 6-7 KM in order to take a train into the city? Steeles between Yonge and well west of Bathurst is lined with high rises and townhouses in a very dense cluster both North and South of Steeles. Your plan does nothing to improve service for the tens of thousands who live in this middle ground between Finch and Hwy 7.

Ought the transit planners ingore this group altogether?

 

[BMO]

I agree. I think what would work best on that line, at least for the foreseeable future, is diesel DMU with strategically placed passing tracks in order to run 30 min frequencies outside of peak, and around 10 min frequencies during peak. That, plus added and relocated stations, should be enough for that line for the foreseeable future.

The only lines IMO that really need GO REX are Lakeshore East + West, a Brampton-Markham line, and the Milton line (assuming they can squeeze it in there and work it out with CP).

If Metrolinx and TTC ever get around to fully integrating Oriole GO and Leslie subway station, combined with a sheppard West extension, could prove to be quite a compelling option for the trips aiming for North York and the west/east end.

 

[drum118]

How does improved train service at Richmond Hill help with the issue of hundreds of busses traveling the section of Yonge between Finch and Steeles? How does improved train service help commuters in the northmost part of Toronto and those in Thornhill? Ought they travel north on Yonge some 6-7 KM in order to take a train into the city? Steeles between Yonge and well west of Bathurst is lined with high rises and townhouses in a very dense cluster both North and South of Steeles. Your plan does nothing to improve service for the tens of thousands who live in this middle ground between Finch and Hwy 7.

Ought the transit planners ingore this group altogether?

The Yonge Line "NEEDS" to be extended to Steeles "NOW", let alone 10 years ago.

The Density and Ridership to Thornhill does not exist today nor 30 years from now without changing the destination Historical for Thornhill and redeveloping the "WHOLE" of Yonge St North of Steeles including the removal of the Golf Courses.

One station has already been removed from the plan for that area due to lack of ridership.

This area is best service with LRT in place of BRT up to Richmond Hill itself.

Are the "Riders" in this area prepare to pay the "FULL" cost to build, operate and maintain the line as it will be a white elephant as Sheppard is today, but worse. I don't think Toronto and Riders should be on the hook for these cost at all, even if Metrolinx control the line.

Spend some time riding the buses on Yonge St between Steeles and Richmond Hill and see where riders get on and off to justify a Subway in place of LRT that would replace the BRT.

At some point the "Light Bulb" will come on that the lanes are max out and transit will carry 3-5 times the cars carry today depending how surface transit operates in the first place.

Why should Transit Riders be "RATS" and force to travel underground while a few car people can enjoy the daylight along with the sun and seeing what the street looks like in the first place??? Its not Cars vs. Transit, its people vs. cars, as cities where built for "PEOPLE", not the car.

Have "YOU" every "Check" this section to see "HOW" many "RIDERS" use this "SECTION"??

I have and its not a nice picture and why I am blunt on this idea.

 

[BMO]

How does improved train service at Richmond Hill help with the issue of hundreds of busses traveling the section of Yonge between Finch and Steeles? How does improved train service help commuters in the northmost part of Toronto and those in Thornhill? Ought they travel north on Yonge some 6-7 KM in order to take a train into the city? Steeles between Yonge and well west of Bathurst is lined with high rises and townhouses in a very dense cluster both North and South of Steeles. Your plan does nothing to improve service for the tens of thousands who live in this middle ground between Finch and Hwy 7.

Ought the transit planners ingore this group altogether?

Interesting point to note that Bathurst and Steeles area between Centre and Finch is one of the biggest clusters of high-rise residential in the inner suburbs.

You are right that improved service on the GO Richmond Hill line really doesn't address the main issue that the Yonge line is and always was meant to address, which is the bus congestion along Yonge within that stretch.

 

[xtremesniper]

Yeah, Metrolinx has missed a chance to asssert it's authority the last couple of years. I understand why the TTC has to have a Toronto-first attitude but that's a hindrance when you're trying to construct a regional network.

Case in point: the comment above that more service on the RH GO line eliminates the need for a subway extension. If I live in a shiny, new condo at Yonge/7, perhaps you can explain to me how that GO train helps me get to North York Centre. Or Yonge/Eg or, in fact, anywhere other than Union Station. A transit system has to take people to/from where they need to go, not merely funnel people in and out of downtown or stop every time it hits a line someone drew on a map generations ago. IMHO.

Exactly. Before Toronto amalgamated, it was composed of multiple mini-cities, most with their own downtown. I think people forget that.

After amalgamation, sure, we call the financial district "downtown" and Eglinton "uptown", and Sheppard/Finch as "North York Centre", but in reality they are their own "downtowns" that have since continued to develop on their own independent of the financial district.

Not every trip originating north of Steeles ends at Union. I think people on this forum know that, but the general public probably doesn't realize it as much as they should.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I'm going to make a prediction: This gets built before the DRL. I'm not saying this because it makes sense technically. I don't feel it does. I'm saying this because it makes sense politically, and ultimately that's all that matters. There is no political upside to the DRL.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The Yonge Line "NEEDS" to be extended to Steeles "NOW", let alone 10 years ago.

The Density and Ridership to Thornhill does not exist today nor 30 years from now without changing the destination Historical for Thornhill and redeveloping the "WHOLE" of Yonge St North of Steeles including the removal of the Golf Courses.

One station has already been removed from the plan for that area due to lack of ridership.

This area is best service with LRT in place of BRT up to Richmond Hill itself.

Are the "Riders" in this area prepare to pay the "FULL" cost to build, operate and maintain the line as it will be a white elephant as Sheppard is today, but worse. I don't think Toronto and Riders should be on the hook for these cost at all, even if Metrolinx control the line.

Spend some time riding the buses on Yonge St between Steeles and Richmond Hill and see where riders get on and off to justify a Subway in place of LRT that would replace the BRT.

Problem is, you're talking about TODAY and not looking at the larger planning context.
There already new secondary plans for both sides of Yonge and there is plenty of density, even without redeveloping historical Thornhill (which, really, is like 4 blocks and a valley).
Fact is, the province has put in to place legislation that REQUIRES Richmond Hill and Markham to intensify at Yonge/7. Fact is, those plans are now in place and entirely contingent on subway and all-day GO and the 407 Transitway. Every one of those you don't build, you knock down the density and population numbers. Go for LRT or BRT, you do the same.
If that happens, they don't hit the targets.

They don't hit the targets, you can count on more people living out in Greenbelt land and they'll buy more SUVs or take whatever mediocre, overtaxed system GO has OR they'll keep driving down or riding buses to Finch. You'll be on a more-crowded subway or totally gridlocked streets.

You are not solving any problems by building to Steeles, unless you count Toronto taxpayer attitudes as a problem to be solved. If you think Toronto's economic success isn't related to people being able to get to/from the 905 efficiently, you're mistaken there too.

The entire region is decades behind on transit planning and you want to cut if off at Steeles - a project with a complete EA and as much planning rationale as any transit project in The Big Move - because of what? Just build the damned thing already. Cutting transit lines too short has been Toronto's modus operandi for way too long. It's ironic you cite Sheppard as a white elephant while also advocating for the neutering of the Yonge extension

Let's build for and with the future for a change, shall we?