[rbt]

Their commutes will improve immensely with the building of SELRT and FWLRT. These take buses off of busy routes and replaces them with a much more comfortable and quicker LRT. The buses that get taken off of Sheppard East, Finch West and Eglinton can be re-purposed to increasing frequency and reliability of other feeder bus routes to Finch/Sheppard.

Well, kinda, but not really.

The buses taken off Sheppard/Finch/Eglinton will be disposed of as they'll be 18+ years old by that time. We simply won't put in a purchase replace them beyond capacity required to meet loading standards.

In short, building Sheppard/Finch/Eglinton will save a few hundred million in bus orders, a few hundred million in a bus garage, and a large amount in annual operating expenses. Finch/Sheppard should be cheap to maintain, Eglinton is going to have subway-expensive capital maintenance costs.

 

[sixrings]

If the srt lrt can't interline with the eglinton line then I support the Bloor extension despite the fact I think it's spending alot of our resources. I'm also a drl advocate all the way to Sheppard. Let's put it this way because I do understand what bmo and others are saying that really it's about getting downtown as fast as possible and all the lrt lines are is feeder routes. I'd rather take a lrt then a over busy rough bus ride that weaves in and out of traffic. Clearly other people agree with me because the kiss and rides locations are always packed because alot of people will ride the subway but never step a foot on a bus. Lrt will encourage those people to leave the driver at home and take the lrt. It will also improve the ride for the bus rider especially as traffic continues to get busier and busier. The heavier the traffic the more the ROW will be a benefit. All I'm saying is that both should exist. We have funding now so why are we arguing so much about it. The more funding comes the more subway advocates try to push for the lrt lines being converted to subway. That's not a good use of resources. The end.

 

[BMO]

Their commutes will improve immensely with the building of SELRT and FWLRT. These take buses off of busy routes and replaces them with a much more comfortable and quicker LRT. The buses that get taken off of Sheppard East, Finch West and Eglinton can be re-purposed to increasing frequency and reliability of other feeder bus routes to Finch/Sheppard.

It's a win-win.

There's pros and cons to both plans or points of view. What annoys some people is when LRT advocates poo poo the idea of a subway anywhere except for DRL, and then think that LRT is the answer to all problems in the suburbs. The reality is that the transit problems in the core are quite different from the problems in the suburbs, both by type of trips and the relative capacity of transit lines in both areas. Quite frankly the social realm in the two areas are quite different as well. The suburbs doesn't have an "abundant access" problem, it has a speed problem, not in terms of frequency, but in terms of the actual physical speed from origin to destination. Will people want to give up a bus stop in front of their house to save 4 or 5 minutes on an LRT (maybe less if you calculate extra walking time)? I don't know, but I don't think so.

I think the capacity issues that ARE seen in the suburbs during peak hours CAN and MAY be better addressed through other improvements that don't involve an LRT and probably don't involve a subway either.

 

[BMO]

double post

 

[gweed123]

I reposted your entire post. Because it is spot on how I feel. To me the LRTs are simply a slightly faster bus. It doesn't do much to save on travel times. And a part of those savings will go towards a longer walk to the stop for many riders. I actually think that's the other shoe that's yet to drop on many riders. I've had quite a few family and friends express surprise when I tell them the stops are going to be twice as far apart on the LRT lines.

To me the issue is the priority of the riders. Most 416 suburban residents don't want a solution that improves bus times for local travel. They care about the trip that impacts them the most every single day: their commutes (often at peak). Instead of addressing those concerns, we went off and built a plan to turn busy bus routes into LRT lines. Sure, that'll save some operational funds. But it hasn't really done much at the end of the day to address the concerns of a majority of residents to begin with: their peak commutes.

That said, I do agree that there's a place for LRT in this city. I even support converting Sheppard. But I can't agree that LRT is a one-size fits all...for example as an SRT replacement where they are now suggesting that they'll have to run twice as much service from Kennedy to McCowan because demand is only slightly below subway levels on that portion of the line.

As for Yonge North? No brainer to me. I hate these fights over jurisdiction and whether they should expand to Richmond Hill. The riders are already there. Build the damn line.

Bang on. If you're looking for a single "plan" that would improve travel times for suburban commuters the most, it would be GO REX. Build the DRL as a GO REX tunnel instead of a TTC subway tunnel, and run additional routes that parallel the current GO lines (minus Barrie) through that tunnel.

Part of the reason the bus system is so crowded is because people are on it forever just to reach the subway. Take Sheppard East for example. If people were able to get off at Agincourt GO and hop on either the Kitchener-Markham GO REX (the full route via Union) or the Mt. Pleasant-Unionville GO REX (via the Queen tunnel and City Hall), I suspect you'd see peak period peak point numbers on Sheppard drop dramatically. Instead of a westbound bus being completely full by the time it reaches Kennedy, 70% of the people could have gotten off at Agincourt, which means that bus has room for 60-70 more people (assuming it's an artic). Same goes for most other major east-west routes (Finch West and East, Sheppard West, York Mills, Lawrence East and West, etc).

Of course, converting the Richmond Hill GO line into a GO REX line that could have 2 routes (1 into Union, 1 into City Hall) would substantially push back the need for a North Yonge Subway extension, as RHC would already be served with near subway-level service. I'd argue that for most people in YR along the Yonge corridor, the GO REX plan would actually be the better option.

 

[sixrings]

My problem with some pro subway people are that they buy a house in the middle of nowhere and then say well if there was only a subway around then i would take transit but now i am forced to drive. If these people ever had any intention of using transit they wouldnt have bought in those remote areas of the suburbs. Obviously if you have been living in toronto for 40 years its a different story because the city grew up around you and this place is totally different then even 10 years ago. But if you go buy a house in tim buck too today and then complain there is no subway access then im sorry but thats on you.

On a separate note I grew up at Midland and Finch so I am use to taking the bus to a subway or sometimes a bus to a srt to a subway to another subway. I get the frustration of the transit. my dad gave up and took the Kennedy GO train to work. It just seems that there are a variety of needs and really to be fair other then the TTC dropping the ball on the DRL the map is doing well when you add in TC. The bigger issue is the infrequency of GO trains and stops within Toronto.

 

[sixrings]

Bang on. If you're looking for a single "plan" that would improve travel times for suburban commuters the most, it would be GO REX. Build the DRL as a GO REX tunnel instead of a TTC subway tunnel, and run additional routes that parallel the current GO lines (minus Barrie) through that tunnel.

Part of the reason the bus system is so crowded is because people are on it forever just to reach the subway. Take Sheppard East for example. If people were able to get off at Agincourt GO and hop on either the Kitchener-Markham GO REX (the full route via Union) or the Mt. Pleasant-Unionville GO REX (via the Queen tunnel and City Hall), I suspect you'd see peak period peak point numbers on Sheppard drop dramatically. Instead of a westbound bus being completely full by the time it reaches Kennedy, 70% of the people could have gotten off at Agincourt, which means that bus has room for 60-70 more people (assuming it's an artic). Same goes for most other major east-west routes (Finch West and East, Sheppard West, York Mills, Lawrence East and West, etc).

Of course, converting the Richmond Hill GO line into a GO REX line that could have 2 routes (1 into Union, 1 into City Hall) would substantially push back the need for a North Yonge Subway extension, as RHC would already be served with near subway-level service. I'd argue that for most people in YR along the Yonge corridor, the GO REX plan would actually be the better option.

Could they please put a GO train stop at caledonia and Eglinton and Weston and Eglinton while at it... PLease add some more stops to the ARL.... THese are the areas where money needs to be put...

 

[BMO]

Bang on. If you're looking for a single "plan" that would improve travel times for suburban commuters the most, it would be GO REX. Build the DRL as a GO REX tunnel instead of a TTC subway tunnel, and run additional routes that parallel the current GO lines (minus Barrie) through that tunnel.

Part of the reason the bus system is so crowded is because people are on it forever just to reach the subway. Take Sheppard East for example. If people were able to get off at Agincourt GO and hop on either the Kitchener-Markham GO REX (the full route via Union) or the Mt. Pleasant-Unionville GO REX (via the Queen tunnel and City Hall), I suspect you'd see peak period peak point numbers on Sheppard drop dramatically. Instead of a westbound bus being completely full by the time it reaches Kennedy, 70% of the people could have gotten off at Agincourt, which means that bus has room for 60-70 more people (assuming it's an artic). Same goes for most other major east-west routes (Finch West and East, Sheppard West, York Mills, Lawrence East and West, etc).

Of course, converting the Richmond Hill GO line into a GO REX line that could have 2 routes (1 into Union, 1 into City Hall) would substantially push back the need for a North Yonge Subway extension, as RHC would already be served with near subway-level service. I'd argue that for most people in YR along the Yonge corridor, the GO REX plan would actually be the better option.

This is exactly what I was trying to say, but better articulated. Thank you.

 

[WislaHD]

There's pros and cons to both plans or points of view. What annoys some people is when LRT advocates poo poo the idea of a subway anywhere except for DRL, and then think that LRT is the answer to all problems in the suburbs. The reality is that the transit problems in the core are quite different from the problems in the suburbs, both by type of trips and the relative capacity of transit lines in both areas. Quite frankly the social realm in the two areas are quite different as well. The suburbs doesn't have an "abundant access" problem, it has a speed problem, not in terms of frequency, but in terms of the actual physical speed from origin to destination. Will people want to give up a bus stop in front of their house to save 4 or 5 minutes on an LRT (maybe less if you calculate extra walking time)? I don't know, but I don't think so.

I think the capacity issues that ARE seen in the suburbs during peak hours CAN and MAY be better addressed through other improvements that don't involve an LRT and probably don't involve a subway either.

LRTs in the suburbs will have long stop gaps, the same as subways. They will also be able to achieve speeds comparable to subways. If people like having a bus stop in front of their house then I don't understand how so many suburbanites are subway advocates. Do they want to maintain a parallel bus route or something?

If that is the problem, then there is really no need for either LRT or subways. What the suburbs need instead are peak hour dedicated bus lanes or even ROWs, alongside with increased frequency.

As for the concern of commute time for origin to destination, there isn't really much to be done outside of the GO lines. The reality is that the suburbs given current public transportation technology, will always have a long commute downtown.

@rbt; Thank you for reminding me. Well not all buses are going to be retired, I don't know where to find the numbers but I am certain I read on here that there will be left-over buses with shelf-life that the city was planning on selling. If anyone can find it/can correct me that would be nice.

 

[WislaHD]

My problem with some pro subway people are that they buy a house in the middle of nowhere and then say well if there was only a subway around then i would take transit but now i am forced to drive. If these people ever had any intention of using transit they wouldnt have bought in those remote areas of the suburbs. Obviously if you have been living in toronto for 40 years its a different story because the city grew up around you and this place is totally different then even 10 years ago. But if you go buy a house in tim buck too today and then complain there is no subway access then im sorry but thats on you.

On a separate note I grew up at Midland and Finch so I am use to taking the bus to a subway or sometimes a bus to a srt to a subway to another subway. I get the frustration of the transit. my dad gave up and took the Kennedy GO train to work. It just seems that there are a variety of needs and really to be fair other then the TTC dropping the ball on the DRL the map is doing well when you add in TC. The bigger issue is the infrequency of GO trains and stops within Toronto.

It is amazing that it is the outer suburbs demanding subways, while the areas with the actual demand for subways, East York, Harbourfront, South Etobicoke, Parkdale/Dufferin, are so quiet.

The city, and I don't mean elected officials, I mean the public, has its priorities wrong.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Its because East york will be getting the DRL, and York is getting the eglinton LRT subway. they are both already satisfied so to speak.

 

[gweed123]

Could they please put a GO train stop at caledonia and Eglinton and Weston and Eglinton while at it... PLease add some more stops to the ARL.... THese are the areas where money needs to be put...

Shameless plug alert: Under my GO REX plan, there would be a Barrie line station (although the Barrie line isn't electrified, but running 30 min service to East Gwillimbury and hourly service to Barrie) at Caledonia & Eglinton, and a major hub at Mt. Dennis (Weston & Eglinton).

I do agree though that that area needs more effective N-S transit options. Funneling everyone east to the Spadina line isn't a very good long-term solution.

This is exactly what I was trying to say, but better articulated. Thank you.

No problem, haha. It's a pretty simple concept when you take a step back from it. The more perpendicular transfer opportunities you have along a given line, the more turnover that line is going to have.

Build express rapid transit along paths of least resistance and have them hit major nodes, while you build local rapid transit along busy corridors using a design that maximizes transit accessibility and use along that corridor.

 

[sixrings]

Shameless plug alert: Under my GO REX plan, there would be a Barrie line station (although the Barrie line isn't electrified, but running 30 min service to East Gwillimbury and hourly service to Barrie) at Caledonia & Eglinton, and a major hub at Mt. Dennis (Weston & Eglinton).

Gweed can you make a small map again or repost a map with where all the GO Stops would be. Id like to see how they connect with the TC LRTs. Specifically Eglinton at Leslie I assume?

 

[gweed123]

Gweed can you make a small map again or repost a map with where all the GO Stops would be. Id like to see how they connect with the TC LRTs. Specifically Eglinton at Leslie I assume?

Here it is: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43869799/GO REX v5.jpg

The Richmond Hill GO line would actually intersect at Eglinton & Don Mills, as it assumes a DRL alignment from just north of Lawrence into downtown. North of that point, it uses the existing GO ROW. The RH line is in a great location north of Lawrence, but south of it it's in the Don Valley and is useless as any kind of urban transit line. Having it assume the DRL alignment makes it much more useful, as it fulfills two purposes at the same time.

 

[BMO]

Here it is: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43869799/GO REX v5.jpg

The Richmond Hill GO line would actually intersect at Eglinton & Don Mills, as it assumes a DRL alignment from just north of Lawrence into downtown. North of that point, it uses the existing GO ROW. The RH line is in a great location north of Lawrence, but south of it it's in the Don Valley and is useless as any kind of urban transit line. Having it assume the DRL alignment makes it much more useful, as it fulfills two purposes at the same time.

Still can't get over that gaping hole between Yonge and Downsview on Sheppard even with all your improvements.