[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Going back a couple of pages - that Star article is poorly written so can someone explain what actually happened at the TTC meeting?

As far as I can tell, they were accepting the final report on the subway and then....what? Did they reject it? Did they accept it but Giambrone decided he'd first rather talk about how much better Transit City is?

In short, since the article neglects to mention it, what was the RESULT of the debate?

 

[Ansem]

Am I the only one thinking that the subway should stop at Steeles and they should build a mega bus terminal so that the Go Bus and Viva gets passengers to Toronto.

It should be the same for the spadina line.

Then we use the money that an extension to Richmond Hill or Vaugh would cost to complete the Sheppard Line or the DRL.

 

[Disparishun]

Am I the only one thinking that the subway should stop at Steeles and they should build a mega bus terminal so that the Go Bus and Viva gets passengers to Toronto.

It should be the same for the spadina line.

Then we use the money that an extension to Richmond Hill or Vaugh would cost to complete the Sheppard Line or the DRL.

First, why do you think that? What magical thing happens at Steeles?

Second, who is this "we"? Do you mean that York Region should be kicking in the municipal portion for the Sheppard or DRL lines?

EDIT: third, fear not -- as you'll see from earlier posts in this thread, the mega-bus terminal you call for is, indeed, on the drawing board for Steeles.

Sheppard and the DRL are needed. Sadly, it looks like Sheppard will never happen -- Giambrone the Subway-slayer is on the case. However, it does not make sense to play them off against other needed transit improvements.

 

[toraerach]

Then we use the money that an extension to Richmond Hill or Vaugh would cost to complete the Sheppard Line or the DRL.

Except a good chunk of that money is coming from York Region and I doubt they'd want to foot the bill for a completed Sheppard or DRL.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Then perhaps York Region should help foot the bill on the DRL or Bloor-Yonge Station improvements that "their" subway extension is going to make necessary.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Then perhaps York Region should help foot the bill on the DRL or Bloor-Yonge Station improvements that "their" subway extension is going to make necessary.

....or we can just ditch the whole project, let people stay in their cars and make sure we regularly bitch about gridlock?

The extension is not making those improvements necessary, merely hilighting their importance.

The people are already there. The Yonge extension, in particular, won't suddenly be swamped with new people so much as it will see more people getting on before Finch Station. And if in a few years people are ditching cars for transit, clogging up downtown stations, well, that's a good thing and the downsides can be fixed by doing what you suggest. Clearly, not any one thing is the solution. I don't trust TTC to have the big picture in mind.

Like Disparishun I was amused by the comment about stopping the subway at Steeles since there is absolutely no difference between the north and south sides, aside from to whom people pay their taxes. One day, this concept will get through to people but, in the meantime, I'll expect to see it reiterated here and by TTC ad nauseum.

I don't think most people are disputing the needs for the DRL and the capacity improvements but I also don't think Giambrone's idea of opting for an LRT instead of a subway solves any of those problems.

...and I still don't understand what took place at the TTC debate.

 

[Voltz]

Except a good chunk of that money is coming from York Region and I doubt they'd want to foot the bill for a completed Sheppard or DRL.

No, York Region is not planning to pay for any of the Yonge extension. It's all coming from the province.

Funny how York Region does not seem to have a problem with planning a line with subpar ridership numbers when they know they won't have to pay to build or operate it.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Funny how York Region does not seem to have a problem with planning a line with subpar ridership numbers when they know they won't have to pay to build or operate it.

Yes, it's disgusting that a higher level of government is picking up the tab for public transit. No hypocrisy in that criticism.
The only thing worse than that is the idea that some "regional transit authority" is making plans for a universe everyone knows starts and ends in the 416.

York Region residents are paying just as much for the subway as Torontonians are for Transit City.

Everyone thinks they're an expert - especially Torontonians who'd be only too happy to build DRLs, LRTs that end at Steeles and really anything else that clears up all their problems before dealing with anything else in the GTA.

It doesn't matter that 416's population is declining while the gridlocked, transit-starved 905 is exploding. But, oh, don't raise our property taxes more than 4%! Don't charge us a land transfer tax! Didn't you see this great Map Adam Giambrone drew on Photoshop? It wasn't actually researched or anything but built into it is the power to solve all of Toronto's transit woes (and no one else's)! Subways or anything extraneous to The Map are, by definition, LOSER projects!

Ahem. There is already ridership at Steeles and there is huge ridership coming to Highway 7 and the benefits of getting buses off of Yonge Street and saving York Region commuters from driving down to Finch should be obvious. Or maybe not, if you live south of Finch in "Real Toronto."

 

[Voltz]

Yes, it's disgusting that a higher level of government is picking up the tab for public transit. No hypocrisy in that criticism.
The only thing worse than that is the idea that some "regional transit authority" is making plans for a universe everyone knows starts and ends in the 416.

York Region residents are paying just as much for the subway as Torontonians are for Transit City.

Everyone thinks they're an expert - especially Torontonians who'd be only too happy to build DRLs, LRTs that end at Steeles and really anything else that clears up all their problems before dealing with anything else in the GTA.

It doesn't matter that 416's population is declining while the gridlocked, transit-starved 905 is exploding. But, oh, don't raise our property taxes more than 4%! Don't charge us a land transfer tax! Didn't you see this great Map Adam Giambrone drew on Photoshop? It wasn't actually researched or anything but built into it is the power to solve all of Toronto's transit woes (and no one else's)! Subways or anything extraneous to The Map are, by definition, LOSER projects!

Ahem. There is already ridership at Steeles and there is huge ridership coming to Highway 7 and the benefits of getting buses off of Yonge Street and saving York Region commuters from driving down to Finch should be obvious. Or maybe not, if you live south of Finch in "Real Toronto."

Of course there are many benefits to this line, but that does not mean it has to get built or that the entire line is absolutely needed. But York Region would not be salivating at the chance for a second line into the region if part of the operating and construction cost had to come from their pockets, and if they had to deal with the downstream effects of more riders.

I know I'm committing the unspeakable sin of questioning the need for a subway, but I believe that this line, past steeles, is a horrendous waste of money, and there are more effective ways to deal with the transit needs in York than concentrating several billion in one corridor. And that is not because I happen to live in toronto.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I suppose that's a fair argument but any position requires a lot of guessing about headways, ridership numbers etc. I find TTC very parochial and so it's not surprising they think Toronto riders can be better served by spending that money elsewhere. I'm not sure it helps GTA riders, however. It's not like they want the money to go to York Region LRTs - they want it for themselves.

My counter to what you say would essentially be that the current Finch terminus is rather abstract, pointless and shortsighted in terms of the current shape of development.

To make a lot of effort just to move up to Steeles, when so much intensification is coming just 5km to the north seems like something everyone will regret a few years down the road. Some of the numbers are speculation but Yonge-Eg-type density at Highway 7 is no guess - it's provincial planning law and people keep forgetting that.

 

[Disparishun]

I know I'm committing the unspeakable sin of questioning the need for a subway, but I believe that this line, past steeles, is a horrendous waste of money, and there are more effective ways to deal with the transit needs in York than concentrating several billion in one corridor. And that is not because I happen to live in toronto.

What is it that you think takes place at Steeles? How did you settle on the Steeles endpoint? It's obviously not based on current or projected density, nor on human traffic patterns. So what is it based on?

Similarly, why do you think that a transit connection between Finch and 7 is about the transit needs in "York"? Traffic is constantly spilling every which one between those points, each of which is in a different municipality. Isn't this about GTA transit needs or, at least, both Toronto's and York Regon's? Or did you think all the traffic was one-way?

 

[toraerach]

No, York Region is not planning to pay for any of the Yonge extension. It's all coming from the province.

Funny how York Region does not seem to have a problem with planning a line with subpar ridership numbers when they know they won't have to pay to build or operate it.

Ah yes, I forgot about that.

It's not like York Region is the only one planning lines with subpar ridership though. A few TC lines are guilty of the same thing not to mention the GO train to Peterborough, etc. It's all politics.

The difference between the Y-U-S extensions and the DRL is that York Region pushed hard for these projects and got them funded while the City of Toronto hasn't made the DRL a priority. It probably wouldn't even be on the map if it wasn't for the grassroots on-line movement and the Metrolinx RTP.

 

[Ansem]

First, why do you think that? What magical thing happens at Steeles?

Second, who is this "we"? Do you mean that York Region should be kicking in the municipal portion for the Sheppard or DRL lines?

EDIT: third, fear not -- as you'll see from earlier posts in this thread, the mega-bus terminal you call for is, indeed, on the drawing board for Steeles.

Sheppard and the DRL are needed. Sadly, it looks like Sheppard will never happen -- Giambrone the Subway-slayer is on the case. However, it does not make sense to play them off against other needed transit improvements.

I recently moved from Montreal and we did the same thing that your about to do. Look at the map:

Both Transit systems look similar.

1-On the east side of the orange line, the last station on the island was Henri-Bourassa. They added 3 Station in Laval (Cartier, Concorde and Montmorency)

Even with the blue line that connects both Orange lines, the trains were packed after the 3 stations in Laval. When the train arrived in Montreal, nobody could get in at all.

The green line used to be the busiest line but now it’s the orange line.

2-They saw it coming and they built a third platform at Henri-Bourassa where the train would leave from Montreal only and not from Laval.

This is what happened. Those who couldn't get into the trains coming from Laval went to this platform but they are sharing the tracks. Even if you had a train every 2-3 mins, it was still overcrowded.

3-Now they just realized that the only way to fix the problem is to either built LRTs or more subway line to relieve the pressure of the orange line. The best solution would be an express track like in New York but the Metro wasn't built for it and the cost would be like building a brand new line.

4-Here in Toronto, I heard the TTC saying by upgrading the signalization; the yonge and spadina line could run smoothly. I've seen it in Montreal and I predict that the same thing will happen.

We had the blue line and it did nothing. With an incomplete Sheppard line and no DRL built at the same time, the yonge-Spadina line will be a nightmare and I'm not even speaking of the subway platforms that are way to small.

5-I'm not saying they shouldn't do the extension but the transit system needs to be upgraded so that it has the ability to take some pressure of the Yonge line. The LRT could be a solution like the Jane and Don Mills line but as long as they connect together downtown and underground. Of course, I hope they go faster than 40 Km/h.

 

[jks]

WOW, I just realized how similar the layout of the Montreal Metro is to the Toronto Subway:

-the green line is BD
-the orange line is YUS
-the blue line is Sheppard (had it been completed CORRECTLY)
-the yellow line is nothing, except maybe something like a subway version of the Harbourfront streetcar

 

[Disparishun]

I recently moved from Montreal and we did the same thing that your about to do. Look at the map:
(...)
1-On the east side of the orange line, the last station on the island was Henri-Bourassa. They added 3 Station in Laval (Cartier, Concorde and Montmorency)

So the magical thing that you think happens at Steeles is a giant river?

Listen, there is genuinely a huge separation between Montreal and Laval, and it ain't an area code. It's the St. Lawrence river. Montreal is an island. Toronto is certainly not one.

If your argument is that subway extension leads to overcrowding, so don't touch the thing, then why the heck would you want it extended to Steeles? It's not making a lot of sense to me.

Even with the blue line that connects both Orange lines, the trains were packed after the 3 stations in Laval. When the train arrived in Montreal, nobody could get in at all.

Noone ever takes the blue line. It never comes. (Sorry, bad memories from my U de M days living in Snowdon.) Seriously, the blue line is not so relevant.

We had the blue line and it did nothing. With an incomplete Sheppard line and no DRL built at the same time, the yonge-Spadina line will be a nightmare and I'm not even speaking of the subway platforms that are way to small.

Blue line aside, yes, they should do the DRL, and they should finish Sheppard (but won't -- it's been Giambroneyed). They should also get their act together with the Richmond Hill GO line, for that matter. But none of this obviates the need to extend the Yonge line north.