Voltz
Senior Member
^^^^^
Apparently, there is $10 million in the extensions budget to renovate Finch station..
Apparently, there is $10 million in the extensions budget to renovate Finch station..
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Well, Finch won't be a gateway once the subway is extended since only the two Finch routes and local walk-ins will use it (though daily ridership could still top 50K). It took over half a year to build the Pemberton bus exit...must have been because of the complicated curb and fence. I wonder if part of the renovation budget for Finch includes shutting down/dismantling the YRT terminal.
As for Steeles, don't forget about the dozens of properties that will have to be expropriated to accommodate the three access tunnels. They could very easily just build the thing on one of the properties, but then it wouldn't be an underground white elephant, would it? I've heard "it's not optimal for redevelopment" as a reason against a surface station, which is amusing because the city still has no grand plans for redeveloping the area (though that hasn't stopped spectacular density figures, that would require many skyscrapers, from being projected).
As for Steeles, don't forget about the dozens of properties that will have to be expropriated to accommodate the three access tunnels. They could very easily just build the thing on one of the properties, but then it wouldn't be an underground white elephant, would it? I've heard "it's not optimal for redevelopment" as a reason against a surface station, which is amusing because the city still has no grand plans for redeveloping the area (though that hasn't stopped spectacular density figures, that would require many skyscrapers, from being projected).
lead82
Senior Member
Well I agree that a monster terminal is not needed at Steeles. I'm not sure why YRT/TTC insists on building these large terminals. I'm actually glad they chose to build Steeles under-ground as I would prefer an underground white elephant versus one above ground. Plus, they do have a point that long-term it is better to not take up valuable space at major intersections with giant airport style bus terminals.
As for Finch, yes once the extension is completed around 2020, it will not be a major bus hub anymore, and thank goodness for that. However it will still get a good amount of ridership from 36/LRT and 39 bus as well as thousands of patrons who walk to the station like myself. I would like to see Finch be renovated. Once most of the buses leave maybe it will make sense to demolish the TTC bus terminal and use the YRT/GO terminal for the remaining routes there. This will free up a large chunk of land on the NE corner of Yonge/Finch that could be redeveloped. The hydro lands can't be developed so a bus terminal is a good use of that land.
As for Finch, yes once the extension is completed around 2020, it will not be a major bus hub anymore, and thank goodness for that. However it will still get a good amount of ridership from 36/LRT and 39 bus as well as thousands of patrons who walk to the station like myself. I would like to see Finch be renovated. Once most of the buses leave maybe it will make sense to demolish the TTC bus terminal and use the YRT/GO terminal for the remaining routes there. This will free up a large chunk of land on the NE corner of Yonge/Finch that could be redeveloped. The hydro lands can't be developed so a bus terminal is a good use of that land.
GTS
Active Member
I am sure the Finch terminal will still be very busy once the extension is complete but not the way it is now. The YRT buses will use the Steeles Station and the other station north of Steeles, does anyone know where GO Transit is planning to get on the TTC. It is probably the Steeles Station since it is planned on being so big. I wonder if GO plans on financing part of this Steeles Station if they are going to be using it. Yonge St. itself will be seeing a lot less bus traffic between Steeles and Finch once this extension is complete which will save the city some money in road maintenance and repairs.
Observer Walt
Senior Member
I can't see why GO would want to connect to a station at Steeles. Surely they would want their connection to be at the north end of the line. Their nearest routes might be north along Yonge from the north end of the line, as well as east and west along the 407. GO's mandate is not to run "local" service along Yonge Street.
Like others I am just amazed at the plan to make the Steeles station into a large white elephant. My count of the number of platforms that might be needed: Two each for Steeles West and Steeles East (express and local), one each for Yonge and Willowdale routes, makes six for the TTC routes. I can't believe that more than six York Region routes would connect to the station. Allowing two more as spares, that totals 14.
As pointed out, the existing TTC platform part of the Finch station could be permanently closed, upon the subway going farther north. A relatively small bus platform structure could be built under the hydro lines, as Lead82 suggests, and some pretty valuable land could then be freed up for development. Selling that would recoup a few of the shekels paid to build the subway.
Like others I am just amazed at the plan to make the Steeles station into a large white elephant. My count of the number of platforms that might be needed: Two each for Steeles West and Steeles East (express and local), one each for Yonge and Willowdale routes, makes six for the TTC routes. I can't believe that more than six York Region routes would connect to the station. Allowing two more as spares, that totals 14.
As pointed out, the existing TTC platform part of the Finch station could be permanently closed, upon the subway going farther north. A relatively small bus platform structure could be built under the hydro lines, as Lead82 suggests, and some pretty valuable land could then be freed up for development. Selling that would recoup a few of the shekels paid to build the subway.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Having Finch buses run to the YRT terminal is a bad idea...it won't be done.
BMO
Senior Member
I don't understand why a new bus platform would need to be made at all at Finch, the current one is actually fairly good, and is close to the actually subway platform which is almost right underneath it albeit a tiny walk down a large set of stairs, but building a bus terminal where the YRT one is makes no sense its a way further walk than the current bus platform. IMHO
lead82
Senior Member
Another possibility is to rebuilt the current TTC Finch bus terminal to make it part of a redevelopment of the NE quadrant of Yonge/Finch. The YRT terminal can be used during construction.
Once the subway opens, the bus terminal's main tenant will be the 39 route, since the Finch West LRT will most likely connect to the station at the south-end in the mezzanine area just south of Tim Horton's. So the TTC bus terminal requirement would be quite small, maybe 4 bays at most.
Once the subway opens, the bus terminal's main tenant will be the 39 route, since the Finch West LRT will most likely connect to the station at the south-end in the mezzanine area just south of Tim Horton's. So the TTC bus terminal requirement would be quite small, maybe 4 bays at most.
GTS
Active Member
I read on Steve Munro's website that the plans for the Drewry/Cummer station plans on being on the Northwest corner of Drewry and Yonge. This station is planned to have two bus bays- one for the Drewry bus and one for the Cummer bus.
Personally I think the TTC should try and save a few dollars and not build a station that serves bus routes just have a station like North York Center station that has no direct bus connection just a transfer connection and mostly walk-in riders. The Drewry bus and Cummer bus could still use the relatively empty Finch Station. Yonge St. will have a lot less bus traffic as it is and I am sure the traffic could handle these two light routes using this corridor to get to Finch. I think the TTC could save some more money and have the Drewry/Cummer station be fully automated. If someone needs to talk with an operator they can find one at the Finch or Steeles station which would be manned.
Personally I think the TTC should try and save a few dollars and not build a station that serves bus routes just have a station like North York Center station that has no direct bus connection just a transfer connection and mostly walk-in riders. The Drewry bus and Cummer bus could still use the relatively empty Finch Station. Yonge St. will have a lot less bus traffic as it is and I am sure the traffic could handle these two light routes using this corridor to get to Finch. I think the TTC could save some more money and have the Drewry/Cummer station be fully automated. If someone needs to talk with an operator they can find one at the Finch or Steeles station which would be manned.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
How could you have read that? It's not true and it's not on Steve Munro's website. Drewry/Cummer is proposed to have a simple bus loop - no bus bays - on the land expropriated for the west service road at Drewry, with no direct connection to the station (though this loop would only be useful for Cummer buses...I haven't heard where Drewry buses are going to turn around).
North York Centre has no bus terminal because it has no connectiong bus routes...Drewry and Cummer see almost 10K riders a day and having them run past a station at Drewry/Cummer and on down to Finch makes no sense. Drewry/Cummer would be used by over 20K people per day (unless they stupidly keep Drewry/Cummer buses running to Finch), making it a poor option to try out automatic stations.
wyliepoon
Senior Member
Perhaps the discussion on the future of the Finch bus platform can lead into a discussion about reviving the busway plan along the hydro corridor. I think a good idea would be to have a grade-separated busway from Don Mills to Finch station on the hydro corridor. Steeles and Finch express buses, as well as an express McNicoll bus (which will replace the Cummer bus east of Don Mills) can use the busway. An underground terminal under the YRT terminal could be the end of this busway. Like previous suggestions, the current Finch TTC terminal can be redeveloped, MTR style.
I'm no expert on North York west of Yonge, but I suppose that this busway could go west from Finch too, leading to places like York University.
I'm no expert on North York west of Yonge, but I suppose that this busway could go west from Finch too, leading to places like York University.
ian
New Member
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090106.wsubway06/BNStory/National/home
Toronto council executive backs subway extension
Mayor says upgrades are tied to Yonge line reaching York Region and predicts cost overruns
JEFF GRAY
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
January 6, 2009 at 4:09 AM EST
A multibillion-dollar plan to extend another of Toronto's subway lines north into York Region was approved by Mayor David Miller and his executive committee yesterday, but with all the enthusiasm of a bus driver headed out for a midnight shift.
The mayor did say that he supports the 6.8-kilometre, six-station extension of the Yonge line as important for "city-building" in the Toronto region. But he spent more time arguing that the proposal - pledged by Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty in 2007 - could cost close to double its $2.4-billion price tag because of needed upgrades to the rest of the line.
Mr. Miller said the project's bill - expected to be covered by the provincial and federal governments - should include other costs, such as up to $450-million in renovations to the Bloor-Yonge station to handle increased passengers and a possible new subway-car yard, although Toronto Transit Commission officials say some of the upgrades are required whether the Yonge line extension goes ahead.
"If this were built without these requirements being part of it, it would not serve the needs of Toronto," Mr. Miller said.
The recommendations passed by the executive committee call for the city to be absolved of any capital or new operating costs for the line, considered a low priority for the TTC despite provincial enthusiasm. The project, vigorously supported by local politicians in York Region, goes before Toronto City Council for final approval later this month.
The extension of the Yonge line, which could begin with detailed design work as early as this spring if funding is secured, would follow the delay-plagued $2.6-billion Spadina subway extension project, where preliminary work to extend the other north-south subway line into York Region has begun.
At the time, city and TTC officials were also reluctant to extend this line north of the Steeles Avenue boundary between Toronto and York Region, concerned that ridership estimates in the sprawling suburbs did not justify the cost of a subway. Mr. Miller said yesterday that dense development plans along the Yonge extension, if realized, would produce enough new riders in the long run.
Councillor Michael Walker (Ward 22, St. Paul's), a frequent critic of the mayor, said the city's demands could kill the project, calling the reluctance to commit any money a parochial move: "We are resisting because of the issues of turf warfare, in my opinion."
Addressing the committee, Mr. Miller later shot back that without the city's requirements, Mr. Walker's subway-riding constituents would be turned into sardines: "Frankly, to people who represent the area around Yonge and Eglinton, they are extremely important, because your residents will never get a seat again, ever, on this subway unless these conditions are met."
The province has already agreed to pay $360-million for a new automated train control system on the Yonge line, demanded by the mayor and TTC officials as a prerequisite to the line's expansion because it will allow trains to be run more closely together.
Both subway extensions into the vote-rich 905, where both federal and provincial Liberals and Conservatives fight for a number of close seats, were surprise announcements by the province that initially caught TTC officials off guard.
Former TTC chairman Howard Moscoe, who now sits on Mr. Miller's executive committee, said the subway extension was "politics writ big" and that the real decisions would be made by the federal and provincial governments.
"The final shape of the project ... is not going to be determined in this room," Mr. Moscoe said. "It's going to be determined by a lot of tough political negotiations involving two other orders of government and [York Region]."
*****
TTC yes, private manager no
Mocking the idea of having a private firm manage the construction of a proposed TTC subway line to Richmond Hill, Mayor David Miller seized yesterday on the name of a failed U.S. investment bank.
"I don't believe that Lehman Brothers should be building our public transit," Mr. Miller said. "...This is an extension of a TTC subway. And I think this council would be derelict in its duties if it did not insist the TTC was the project manager."
The quip was prompted by questioning from Councillor Karen Stintz, who has previously raised the idea of looking into having the private sector, or the province's Metrolinx agency, take over Toronto Transit Commission projects, something she says could save millions of dollars.
In a testy exchange as Ms. Stintz addressed Mr. Miller's hand-picked executive committee yesterday, the left-leaning mayor - no fan of the current enthusiasm among other governments for public-private partnerships - said the subway should be managed by the city's transit agency alone.
Mr. Miller said the TTC is the most experienced subway-builder in Canada, although he pointed out that almost all of the construction will already be done by the private sector.
Citing the TTC's 1995 fatal subway crash, he said only a government agency can ensure the new line is built to exacting safety standards.
The mayor said a public-private partnership to build a transit line in Vancouver has been "fraught with controversy." He argued that auditor KPMG had endorsed the decision to have the TTC manage the extension of its other north-south subway line, Spadina.
Deputy mayor Joe Pantalone later joined in, comparing the notion from Ms. Stintz to the radical privatizations of former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher.
Toronto council executive backs subway extension
Mayor says upgrades are tied to Yonge line reaching York Region and predicts cost overruns
JEFF GRAY
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
January 6, 2009 at 4:09 AM EST
A multibillion-dollar plan to extend another of Toronto's subway lines north into York Region was approved by Mayor David Miller and his executive committee yesterday, but with all the enthusiasm of a bus driver headed out for a midnight shift.
The mayor did say that he supports the 6.8-kilometre, six-station extension of the Yonge line as important for "city-building" in the Toronto region. But he spent more time arguing that the proposal - pledged by Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty in 2007 - could cost close to double its $2.4-billion price tag because of needed upgrades to the rest of the line.
Mr. Miller said the project's bill - expected to be covered by the provincial and federal governments - should include other costs, such as up to $450-million in renovations to the Bloor-Yonge station to handle increased passengers and a possible new subway-car yard, although Toronto Transit Commission officials say some of the upgrades are required whether the Yonge line extension goes ahead.
"If this were built without these requirements being part of it, it would not serve the needs of Toronto," Mr. Miller said.
The recommendations passed by the executive committee call for the city to be absolved of any capital or new operating costs for the line, considered a low priority for the TTC despite provincial enthusiasm. The project, vigorously supported by local politicians in York Region, goes before Toronto City Council for final approval later this month.
The extension of the Yonge line, which could begin with detailed design work as early as this spring if funding is secured, would follow the delay-plagued $2.6-billion Spadina subway extension project, where preliminary work to extend the other north-south subway line into York Region has begun.
At the time, city and TTC officials were also reluctant to extend this line north of the Steeles Avenue boundary between Toronto and York Region, concerned that ridership estimates in the sprawling suburbs did not justify the cost of a subway. Mr. Miller said yesterday that dense development plans along the Yonge extension, if realized, would produce enough new riders in the long run.
Councillor Michael Walker (Ward 22, St. Paul's), a frequent critic of the mayor, said the city's demands could kill the project, calling the reluctance to commit any money a parochial move: "We are resisting because of the issues of turf warfare, in my opinion."
Addressing the committee, Mr. Miller later shot back that without the city's requirements, Mr. Walker's subway-riding constituents would be turned into sardines: "Frankly, to people who represent the area around Yonge and Eglinton, they are extremely important, because your residents will never get a seat again, ever, on this subway unless these conditions are met."
The province has already agreed to pay $360-million for a new automated train control system on the Yonge line, demanded by the mayor and TTC officials as a prerequisite to the line's expansion because it will allow trains to be run more closely together.
Both subway extensions into the vote-rich 905, where both federal and provincial Liberals and Conservatives fight for a number of close seats, were surprise announcements by the province that initially caught TTC officials off guard.
Former TTC chairman Howard Moscoe, who now sits on Mr. Miller's executive committee, said the subway extension was "politics writ big" and that the real decisions would be made by the federal and provincial governments.
"The final shape of the project ... is not going to be determined in this room," Mr. Moscoe said. "It's going to be determined by a lot of tough political negotiations involving two other orders of government and [York Region]."
*****
TTC yes, private manager no
Mocking the idea of having a private firm manage the construction of a proposed TTC subway line to Richmond Hill, Mayor David Miller seized yesterday on the name of a failed U.S. investment bank.
"I don't believe that Lehman Brothers should be building our public transit," Mr. Miller said. "...This is an extension of a TTC subway. And I think this council would be derelict in its duties if it did not insist the TTC was the project manager."
The quip was prompted by questioning from Councillor Karen Stintz, who has previously raised the idea of looking into having the private sector, or the province's Metrolinx agency, take over Toronto Transit Commission projects, something she says could save millions of dollars.
In a testy exchange as Ms. Stintz addressed Mr. Miller's hand-picked executive committee yesterday, the left-leaning mayor - no fan of the current enthusiasm among other governments for public-private partnerships - said the subway should be managed by the city's transit agency alone.
Mr. Miller said the TTC is the most experienced subway-builder in Canada, although he pointed out that almost all of the construction will already be done by the private sector.
Citing the TTC's 1995 fatal subway crash, he said only a government agency can ensure the new line is built to exacting safety standards.
The mayor said a public-private partnership to build a transit line in Vancouver has been "fraught with controversy." He argued that auditor KPMG had endorsed the decision to have the TTC manage the extension of its other north-south subway line, Spadina.
Deputy mayor Joe Pantalone later joined in, comparing the notion from Ms. Stintz to the radical privatizations of former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher.
Rainforest
Senior Member
BMO
Senior Member
2B?? wouldn't the subway have to be built under some pretty dense areas requiring more engineering work and more complicated methods of tunnelling?