W. K. Lis
Superstar
How much do the developers pay the city to build new condo towers? They could just let them build more in the area.
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
How much do the developers pay the city to build new condo towers? They could just let them build more in the area.
Cobra
Senior Member
Yes but a subway could potentially attract more riders over time due to the development it would potentially trigger and also, attract riders from farther away and funnel them on the Yonge line. The Richmond Hill GO line converted into RER and enhanced service would accomplish the very same thing at a lesser cost.
If the same amount of money needs to be spent in York, what's more "bang for the money"?
-GO RER + LRT
or
-4 subway stops?
Like Drum was saying, since the Relief Line is 12 to 15 years away (let along Relief Line Long), RH subway is not happening anytime soon anyways.
Ridership
I'd like some fairness in this project. The way Sheppard and Scarborough's ridership got so much scrutiny over the ridership, I expect nothing less that the ridership be updated and for the LRT + a potential GO RER be assessed as valid alternatives this time around. If the ridership shows that LRT can support it, I don't see why a subway is necessary. If the study shows that despite GO RER and LRT being there, subway is still necessary then that's another story.
So far, there's nothing bulletproof about that project
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
I'm pretty confident that a subway to Steeles with a stop at Cummer is justified. North of it, I am not sure, and it isn't because of the municipal lines. But I think we have to accept that for political reasons, it is going to happen anyway.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
I've written about what I would do to help address this before. Build the Relief Line subway northwest to meet up with the YNSE at Richmond Hill Centre Station.
York Region commuters heading downtown would opt for the Relief Line as it would be a quicker and less congested ride downtown. Doing this maximizes the relief the Relief Line can provide for the Yonge Subway and opening up capacity for those infill development along the Yonge corridor.
Cobra
Senior Member
I also don't like the math behind this project. Yes capital costs might be split and paid in part by York Region, but the fact that the maintenance and operational costs being dumped on the TTC and Toronto taxpayers is wrong...absolutely wrong.
As I said many time, Montreal Metro is not only subsidized by the Province of Quebec, but the O&M was shared between Montreal, then Longueuil...eventually to the whole CMM (equivalent to the GTA). York needs to start paying for the O&M as well or the province "relieve" Toronto of the TTC and upload it into Metrolinx. As is, the math is wrong and the subway should end at Steeles if York won't help with the O&M costs...( Just like Montreal had threaten Laval to do when they refused to pay for the O&M over fares being hire in Laval. Montreal had promised to shorten all the trains at Henri-Bourassa if no payments were made)
minilude
Active Member
There is no such thing of subway/lrt/brt on a single straight corridor, at least for now. Riders are not fool and they will not like transfer transfer transfer. You need to find a middle point where subway ends and BRT begins, whether it be Finch, Steeles, or Hwy7
drum118
Superstar
What needs to happen now is building the extension to Steeles, as this will resolved a lot of today problems and becomes a win win for everyone.
Both York & TTC will not only reduce the number of buses operating out of Finch today, it will allow riders to get to/from where they are going faster. Has a huge impact on both York and TTC bottom line. As for GO, it will help some routes with the rest remaining at Finch, but time will tell.
With the Steeles station in place, the time frame to build the line north becomes shorter when it happens. TTC Can build high speed crossovers at Steeles to speed up service some what.
Since the yard is to be at 16th Ave, a 16th station should be built, but is this the right place to stop the line, let alone RHC??
Talking to York and RH planners during the round-table events for the Big Move years ago, they prefer to have the line to go north of RH downtown since this was a pinch point of any type of service at surface levels.
On my master plan of 2006, I have the subway stopping at Elgin Mills Rd before I looked at business case studies that don't support the line north of Steeles.
Anyone going to Toronto Core, this subway north of Steeles is useless to them and better off using the RH line once Metrolinx brings that line up to 2 tracks offering 10 minute service faster than today. I already stated this upgrading of the line to electrification using 3-12 car trains is $1 billion. If Metrolinx upgrade this corridor like I have call for, then LRT is only needed on the BRT system being built.
Both York & TTC will not only reduce the number of buses operating out of Finch today, it will allow riders to get to/from where they are going faster. Has a huge impact on both York and TTC bottom line. As for GO, it will help some routes with the rest remaining at Finch, but time will tell.
With the Steeles station in place, the time frame to build the line north becomes shorter when it happens. TTC Can build high speed crossovers at Steeles to speed up service some what.
Since the yard is to be at 16th Ave, a 16th station should be built, but is this the right place to stop the line, let alone RHC??
Talking to York and RH planners during the round-table events for the Big Move years ago, they prefer to have the line to go north of RH downtown since this was a pinch point of any type of service at surface levels.
On my master plan of 2006, I have the subway stopping at Elgin Mills Rd before I looked at business case studies that don't support the line north of Steeles.
Anyone going to Toronto Core, this subway north of Steeles is useless to them and better off using the RH line once Metrolinx brings that line up to 2 tracks offering 10 minute service faster than today. I already stated this upgrading of the line to electrification using 3-12 car trains is $1 billion. If Metrolinx upgrade this corridor like I have call for, then LRT is only needed on the BRT system being built.
Amare
Senior Member
The thing is, something like that would never happen. If there was a proposal to build only to Steeles, you would have politicians and people banging at the door demanding for the subway to be extended all the way to Richmond Hill. Not only that, but the province would never fund a subway that terminated at Steeles (see Spadina subway extension for more on why).
dowlingm
Senior Member
Because it's not like that money is needed to pay for other services...
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
For this reason, I wonder if Toronto can get off the hook for funding the capital costs from Finch to Steeles.
GenerationW
Senior Member
The idea that the city would ever stand up to Queen's Park, York Region and probably Ottawa, and fund (never mind build) an extension only up to Steeles is laughable.
minilude
Active Member
The city never cares about that 2km despite there are crowds of 2500 buses. The city only cares about votes from Scarborough. It is YR pushed hard for it which also probably facilitates the progress of DRL. Have you ever heard any voices from willowdale councillors?
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TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Ugh. People are STILL debating this as if they're going to kill it and build a 50km DRL or implement RER next year or stop it at Steeles or otherwise soliciting opinions about what they should do now.
It's going to Highway 7. Period. Move on.
The province would never fund it only to Steeles because it makes no sense given the planning regime and Regional Transit Plan they've approved, and the Official Plans they've approved that conform to those. Move on.
Toronto has already endorsed the project subject to the (now being planned DRL). Move on.
Toronto has updated its secondary plan from Finch to Steeles to account for the increased density that comes with a subway. Move on.
We've all got personal Master Plans and Fantasy Maps. The province and city and region have actual maps. It's on those. Move on.
As far as operating costs, it's likely to be the most successful new transit project in the Big Move and there's reason to hope/expect some sort of regional funding to have something more fair by the time it opens, at least 10 years from now. So, move on.
Soon we're going to be reduced to debating whether ships can actually navigate the Northwestern Passage or whether they'll fall off the earth if we can't figure out the difference between history and the present.
It's going to Highway 7. Period. Move on.
The province would never fund it only to Steeles because it makes no sense given the planning regime and Regional Transit Plan they've approved, and the Official Plans they've approved that conform to those. Move on.
Toronto has already endorsed the project subject to the (now being planned DRL). Move on.
Toronto has updated its secondary plan from Finch to Steeles to account for the increased density that comes with a subway. Move on.
We've all got personal Master Plans and Fantasy Maps. The province and city and region have actual maps. It's on those. Move on.
As far as operating costs, it's likely to be the most successful new transit project in the Big Move and there's reason to hope/expect some sort of regional funding to have something more fair by the time it opens, at least 10 years from now. So, move on.
Soon we're going to be reduced to debating whether ships can actually navigate the Northwestern Passage or whether they'll fall off the earth if we can't figure out the difference between history and the present.
TransitBart
Senior Member
I am an employer in the Toronto region. I am losing employees from the north and the east because they can't get to work in a reasonable amount of time and without delay and stress.
The provincial government knows how critical this situation is and knows that the GTHA is in danger of choking itself.
The $150 million to make the Relief Line 'shovel ready', and the $55 to advance the subway to Richmond Hill are steps on a road to both subways being built sooner (less than ten years) rather than later. We are simply choking on ourselves. If the GTHA municipalities can not see that, don't expect Queen's park to sit back and watch a train wreck happen. Don't have any illusions that if the parochial fools running Brampton can't see that a fully funded LRT (local service) linking three inter-regional terminals (GO Port Credit to GO Cooksville to GO Brampton) is necessary (and good or great!) then Metrolinx and/or the province will step in like with any recalcitrant school board or hospital to set things right.
Buses are not rapid transit although they are public transit, and no LRT in the world is going to move people on the scale required in the GTHA. There are more subways in the city's future and even Queen's Park knows that at this point. Everyone here can rage and gnash teeth about ridership this and ridership that, but if we can't get to work or school on time and without undue stress, what's the point?
Toronto is the continent's fourth largest economy run (until now) by some of the smallest minded pols on the planet. Sure LA is larger and has light rail. It's also a huge and not that dense city with huge wide streets that I think are similar to Mississauga except LA has palm trees.
Toronto + GTHA provides 25% of Canada's GDP and perhaps 50%+ of Ontario's. Every citizen of this province - especially the outlying areas - dependent on transfers from the south's thriving cities needs for the GTHA to function well. It's also a national priority because again, 20% (approx 8.5M people) of the entire national populace lives here. If we aren't generating the economic results, the effects will be felt across the country.
Last night at the Relief Line info session I met an MPP. He told me that whether it's the orange party, the blue party or the red party, he thinks that Queen's Park is of the opinion that the transportation situation in the GTHA is critical. I happen to agree.
The provincial government knows how critical this situation is and knows that the GTHA is in danger of choking itself.
The $150 million to make the Relief Line 'shovel ready', and the $55 to advance the subway to Richmond Hill are steps on a road to both subways being built sooner (less than ten years) rather than later. We are simply choking on ourselves. If the GTHA municipalities can not see that, don't expect Queen's park to sit back and watch a train wreck happen. Don't have any illusions that if the parochial fools running Brampton can't see that a fully funded LRT (local service) linking three inter-regional terminals (GO Port Credit to GO Cooksville to GO Brampton) is necessary (and good or great!) then Metrolinx and/or the province will step in like with any recalcitrant school board or hospital to set things right.
Buses are not rapid transit although they are public transit, and no LRT in the world is going to move people on the scale required in the GTHA. There are more subways in the city's future and even Queen's Park knows that at this point. Everyone here can rage and gnash teeth about ridership this and ridership that, but if we can't get to work or school on time and without undue stress, what's the point?
Toronto is the continent's fourth largest economy run (until now) by some of the smallest minded pols on the planet. Sure LA is larger and has light rail. It's also a huge and not that dense city with huge wide streets that I think are similar to Mississauga except LA has palm trees.
Toronto + GTHA provides 25% of Canada's GDP and perhaps 50%+ of Ontario's. Every citizen of this province - especially the outlying areas - dependent on transfers from the south's thriving cities needs for the GTHA to function well. It's also a national priority because again, 20% (approx 8.5M people) of the entire national populace lives here. If we aren't generating the economic results, the effects will be felt across the country.
Last night at the Relief Line info session I met an MPP. He told me that whether it's the orange party, the blue party or the red party, he thinks that Queen's Park is of the opinion that the transportation situation in the GTHA is critical. I happen to agree.
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TransitBart
Senior Member
Just a thought. I drive and I use the 400 highways to get around for work. I use the 404 extension from Green Lane to Woodbine. I don't recall one ounce of the debate over 'drivership' (my facetious word) or use that that extension would ganer in comparison to the debate here over LRT, subway, stop justified or stop not justified.
Everyone here is probably debating here because we favour the idea and value of good public transportation. Or we're transit geeks or both. Why are we raging over details?
Shouldn't we be celebrating solid advances in the GTHA public transportation infrastructure?