[sixrings]

If anything I'd think Bathurst would make more sense considering the density and demographics along the corridor. Avenue Rd doesn't strike me as a crowd that is going to take transit very often.

Maybe but Avenue is in walking distance and although I agree the crowd is different it also gives an opportunity to really have limited stops. Basically Lawrence, Eglinton, St. Clair, making it an express line. As for Bathurst my crazy plan takes care of part of it by changing the route of the University line.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I do care about all the above...But the fact still remains...Many in Toronto can't do easily what you've just pointed out due to lack of transit. Since their taxes are paying for the TTC, it just makes sense that they get the service they pay for, not seeing their taxes financing services outside of the city they do not have themselves or can't use because it's overcrowded. It's about priorities and quite frankly, York subway is not a priority...(Subway-wise)

York subway is not a priority FOR TORONTO. I get that. But Toronto is part of a larger region and it is a priority for that.
As for money money money, I've said all along there need to be regional revenue tools to fairly fund cross-border lines so what Torontonians are paying for should be academic by the time it opens.

Good to know there areas in TO that have ridership for a subway but the city isn't building the there (and I probably agree with your Scarborough rankings..). This is an area that does have the ridership and it's unfortunate it happens to be located adjacent to Toronto rather than within it, but that's not a reason for me to agree it makes less sense.

The capacity issue I've addressed elsewhere and I'm not going to redo it here at any length. It's a problem and I've never said otherwise. It's also a problem that is casuing regional problems and it's taken Toronto to long to address it properly. This ripple effect is what happens from their years of dumb transit planning.

If you can't understand the real world logistics of why York Region can't built its own little subway, I can't help you with the rest of it. (And even THAT only makes sense if Toronto builds a subway to Steeles so it's a joint project, no matter what you want to call it. But all you care about, as I said, is where the money is coming from. you don't seem interested in all in how riders get from A to B, except in the narrow sense of riders at Eglinton not being able to sit down, as if today they totally can.)

You should have read further. It started as a separate entity from NYC. I know what it is today. I always said if Metrolinx took the subway off Toronto's hands, you and I wouldn't be debating. Until they do, we'll keep debating. If the subway was so profitable as you claim, why hasn't Metrolinx stepped up already?

Because TTC protects its little fiefdom, and rightly so, to an extent.
But even if I thought uploading the subway made sense (and mostly I do, but not always) that's a huge political move and one that would give the Steve Munros of the world a psychotic break from reality.

I understand you're saying that in the current financial arrangement makes it seem dumb but that strikes me as pointless since the financial arrangements HAVE to change and should change. What I want to see is regional funding and revenue tools via Metrolinx; reconstituted as a proper, democratic transit authority. But that's for another thread.

I don't think if the YR politicians are asking for a subway and demanding Toronto pay for it but I know I'm not. I never said O&M should be Toronto's responsibility. But if I say that, you'll go back to capacity. And if I say I agree the DRL should be built first, you'll go on to somethign else. That's the pattern on this forum. There's always a reason. Too much ridership! Too little! Too expensive! Too long! Blah blah blah.

(I don't think the pols don't care but they have a job to do too, promoting their communities. It's unfortunate - and they should recognize - that they need TORONTO'S subway, but Toronto also needs to understand it's the centre of an integrated region, not an island.)

It will (excluding the Crosstown) probably be the most successful transit project built in this region in years. That's not to say there are not legit issues with it, but trying to cut away at every little point upon which its support is built is counter-productive.

How is connecting to the DRL a bad idea? Why would it discourage ridership? It stops on the Sheppard Line, Crosstown, Bloor Line and ends on Queen?
Why is there an obsession with Yonge???

Seriously? If you don't understand the difference between Yonge Street and Don Mills Road (give or take) I'd suggest:
a) you get out for a walk [if short on time, you can drive or use Google Streetview, in a pinch]
b) you read some history books (start with Lord Simcoe)
c) you read the Planning Act, the Growth Plan, the PPS and the Official Plans of Toronto, Markham, Richmond Hill and Vaughan

Feel free to also talk to some real estate agents and developers about why people are OBSESSED with the most important street in the city, dating back 200-odd years.

Then you'll know. I'll be waiting for when you to understand the "obsession" with Yonge.

And, yeah, a subway along Bathurst than Avenue makes more sense but still isn't very likely.

 

[rbt]

This is what I have been saying all along that the Yonge Line will need a 2nd line to handle all the new development plan for it by 2050 before thinking going into York. This on top of building the DRL and RER

Yonge St. corridor can’t handle more development

Yonge subway walk-in ridership is what? 10000pphpd (I think that's a very generous estimate)? Everything else arrives by transfer and every single one of those transfer customers would be perfectly happy with an alternative method for their north/south travel provided it is equally convenient to Yonge.

Redirect all buses (no bus goes to Yonge) to Richmond Hill and Barrie lines with 3 minute frequencies and even walk-ins at St. Clair will often get a seat.

 

[Cobra]

Seriously? If you don't understand the difference between Yonge Street and Don Mills Road (give or take) I'd suggest:
a) you get out for a walk [if short on time, you can drive or use Google Streetview, in a pinch]
b) you read some history books (start with Lord Simcoe)
c) you read the Planning Act, the Growth Plan, the PPS and the Official Plans of Toronto, Markham, Richmond Hill and Vaughan

Feel free to also talk to some real estate agents and developers about why people are OBSESSED with the most important street in the city, dating back 200-odd years.

Then you'll know. I'll be waiting for when you to understand the "obsession" with Yonge.

Why are you hating on Don Mills?

• Lots of people lives at Sheppard and Don Mills. I enjoy going to Fairview Malls and its near the 401 and 404, If you must go to Yonge, the Sheppard line will take you.
• There's lots of real estate opportunities near York Mills. Buy cheaper now and see the value increase when the DRL arrives
• Real estate is already starting at Lawrence and shop at Don Mills is quite lovely
• The Crosstown if there are people needing to go to Yonge or along the avenue. Massive redevelopment is coming that way

For those who needs to go downtown, the train will take you there, also via Unilever future employment node. Isn't that useful? Or they can go straight to downtown to Queen or Osgoode.

What's wrong with ''transferring'' if some people need to go on Yonge? The 2-4 and 5 lines are too much trouble?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Why are you hating on Don Mills?

• Lots of people lives at Sheppard and Don Mills. I enjoy going to Fairview Malls and its near the 401 and 404, If you must go to Yonge, the Sheppard line will take you.
• There's lots of real estate opportunities near York Mills. Buy cheaper now and see the value increase when the DRL arrives
• Real estate is already starting at Lawrence and shop at Don Mills is quite lovely
• The Crosstown if there are people needing to go to Yonge or along the avenue. Massive redevelopment is coming that way

For those who needs to go downtown, the train will take you there, also via Unilever future employment node. Isn't that useful? Or they can go straight to downtown to Queen or Osgoode.

What's wrong with ''transferring'' if some people need to go on Yonge? The 2-4 and 5 lines are too much trouble?

I love Don Mills! I went to school on Don Mills! I like Fairview Mall! I have fond memories of the Peanut!

But it's a terrible place for a subway north of Sheppard. Yes, Seneca is at Finch and there's a very few condo towers but then it's all mature suburban hoods; there is no corridor for intensification whereas Yonge is (obviously) active and, more to the point, designated as a mixed-use corridor in every planning document - including Toronto's, by the way.

I have no problem at all with the DRL going to Sheppard. I just think:
-It was Metrolinx's idea, not Toronto's
-It's not happening in the short term

But if I had a fantasy map? Yeah ,sure - it'd go there and the Sheppard line would connect to Downsview, while I'm at it.
But you also shouldn't labour under the illusion that building the DRL to Sheppard over, I dunno, the course of the next 25 years, will slow or stop the condo development marching north on Yonge, from 401 to Major Mac. The Bloor capacity issues will look like nothing if you keep adding those people without adequate transportation infrastructure. As much as you ALL CAPS declare the subway is at capacity at Yonge/Bloor, so too is the Yonge/Steeles road intersection, and it has been for years. Adding another 10,000 residents over the next decade (at least) without a subway just means you're"solving" one problem and creating another.

In the meantime, I'd suggest that while downtown is always going to be the main job centre (I include hypothetical Unilever in that), there are also suburban job centres and great value in nurturing that. If nothing else, it fosters both reverse commuting and giving suburbanites places to work that are closer to home. You can't keep building a radial system that only funnels people into downtown. That's why we're in this mess in the first place (that we built it and then failed to augment and expand it through the 80s and 90s, particularly).

 

[Palma]

*

*I'm not sure what you're talking about with the buses. The 2,500 a day includes buses only going from Steeles to Finch. I believe that number is every bus arriving at Finch Station from points north, be it TTC, GO or Viva/YRT. But it is a real number and easily observable. With a subway, that number would be done to virtually nothing; from all the transit agencies.
?QUOTE]
It would only transfer the buses to steeles or north of Steeles - to get to the subway at Steeles

 

[drum118]

Couldn't they achieve the same thing by building an Avenue road line? People can easily walk from Yonge to Avenue Road if they live at yonge.

What part of Avenue Rd are you talking about???

The distance on Bloor St is shorter than at Lawrence.

That 10000pphpd number is low as you only have to look at NYC station that see close to 30,000 walkin daily; then you need to add all the riders coming out of the towers to go north at pm peak, regardless how they transfer after getting a train.

The more development take place on Yonge and withing a block or 2 of it, it will only increase the walking numbers.

One only has to go to the major intersection to see what there now and what is coming to see walkin is going to out strip transfering riders. The Eglinton Intersection area is going to grow 6 times or more than it has today.

I recommend "STRONGLY" Walk Yonge St from Steeles south and look at what there now, on the books to be built, under construction, vision what those existing loctation could look like within the next 20-30 years and you will see what I have being saying about capicity and a 2nd line. Then try looking at what the corridor will look like with 2-3 blocks of Yonge for the same time fram as its alreay happening at Eglinton.

As for flying car, no one on this board will be alive to see it take place.

 

[sixrings]

What part of Avenue Rd are you talking about???

The distance on Bloor St is shorter than at Lawrence.

That 10000pphpd number is low as you only have to look at NYC station that see close to 30,000 walkin daily; then you need to add all the riders coming out of the towers to go north at pm peak, regardless how they transfer after getting a train.

The more development take place on Yonge and withing a block or 2 of it, it will only increase the walking numbers.

One only has to go to the major intersection to see what there now and what is coming to see walkin is going to out strip transfering riders. The Eglinton Intersection area is going to grow 6 times or more than it has today.

I recommend "STRONGLY" Walk Yonge St from Steeles south and look at what there now, on the books to be built, under construction, vision what those existing loctation could look like within the next 20-30 years and you will see what I have being saying about capicity and a 2nd line. Then try looking at what the corridor will look like with 2-3 blocks of Yonge for the same time fram as its alreay happening at Eglinton.

As for flying car, no one on this board will be alive to see it take place.

I walk between avenue road and yonge all the time on Eglinton. I assume its the same distance at Lawrence. Anyways I am not in charge but I just could not imagine spending money on an express yonge line instead of building another line very close by.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I recommend "STRONGLY" Walk Yonge St from Steeles south and look at what there now, on the books to be built, under construction, vision what those existing loctation could look like within the next 20-30 years and you will see what I have being saying about capicity and a 2nd line. Then try looking at what the corridor will look like with 2-3 blocks of Yonge for the same time fram as its alreay happening at Eglinton.

As for flying car, no one on this board will be alive to see it take place.

I don't think you're wrong that, all things being equal, a second line would be great; an express line, even.

I just think there's no way it will happen. They should have thought of it in the 50s but real estate, costs and engineering make it a virtual impossibility today. And, as it stands, nothing remotely along those lines is anyone's plans, short- or long-term.

I'd put money flying cars happen first. We already have hoverboards!

 

[drum118]

I walk between avenue road and yonge all the time on Eglinton. I assume its the same distance at Lawrence. Anyways I am not in charge but I just could not imagine spending money on an express yonge line instead of building another line very close by.

Nope, the road bends twice going west each time. I have done the walk on Bloor and Eglinton, but not lawrence. Not a short walking distance.

Aveune Rd, Bayview can't support an line and that leaves Yonge. You use Yonge until Eglinton as an express line and go local south down Bay St to QQ. Questions would be will those local stops be like Yonge or something else??

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

But you're talking about a line on a map. You're not talking about the realities of tunneling under Yonge.
There is no such reality. they should have left room under Yonge back in the 50s but they didn't. Personally, I'd love to see an express line that stopped at, say, Finch, Sheppard, Eg, St. Clair and Bloor but it's a technical impossibility.

Good idea - not possible. Best to move on.
If you're down on flying cars maybe you can get behind transporter technology?
(Both are more likely than a new Yonge subway line, I am sincerely sorry to say.)

 

[Klieg]

But you're talking about a line on a map. You're not talking about the realities of tunneling under Yonge.
There is no such reality. they should have left room under Yonge back in the 50s but they didn't. Personally, I'd love to see an express line that stopped at, say, Finch, Sheppard, Eg, St. Clair and Bloor but it's a technical impossibility.

Would it be possible to tunnel a new Yonge line underneath the existing one? That way they could avoid ploughing through anybody's basement...

 

[BurlOak]

If you want more capacity on the Yonge line, then put the subway under Avenue Road or Mount Pleasant.
Have this line cross Yonge, either Avenue-Chaplin-Davisville Interchange-Mount Pleasant-Jarvis, or Mount Pleasant-Summerhill Interchange-Bay Street.
Make that new north-south route the terminal for the buses and not Yonge.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Would it be possible to tunnel a new Yonge line underneath the existing one? That way they could avoid ploughing through anybody's basement...

Deeper you go, more expensive it is. I'm pretty sure there are concrete reasons (no pun intended) that a new Yonge line is simply not possible.

In theory itmight make sense to do a parallel line on Mt Pleasant or Avenue or whatever but, at best, you're talking about something 50 years out. Best to deal with the problems and possibilities we actually have in the present.

Here's a Steve Munro (!) bit from a few years back. Take with a grain of salt, if you like:
Leaving aside the issue of cost, there are severe engineering problems with [a new Yonge subway].


Going either side of the existing line would involve tunneling under existing buildings, not the cut-and-cover method that was used for the original line from Eglinton down to Union. Stations would be particularly tricky in this context unless the route goes down a parallel street such as Bay or Church. Station arrangements at common “express” locations will be quite tricky (e.g. Sheppard/Yonge or Eglinton/Yonge), and I don’t even want to think about the connection to the Bloor line.

As for filling in stations north of Eglinton, the problem here is that no provision was left in the tunnel alignment for this at the locations you mention are almost all on grades where platforms cannot be retrofitted, not to mention fitting station structure into the surrounding neighbourhoods.

 

[44 North]

In the meantime, I'd suggest that while downtown is always going to be the main job centre (I include hypothetical Unilever in that), there are also suburban job centres and great value in nurturing that. If nothing else, it fosters both reverse commuting and giving suburbanites places to work that are closer to home. You can't keep building a radial system that only funnels people into downtown. That's why we're in this mess in the first place (that we built it and then failed to augment and expand it through the 80s and 90s, particularly).

Seems like we're in our current mess for the complete opposite reason you wrote. That we didn't build a radial system branching out from our CBD. One line does not make a radial (try riding a bike with a single spoke on its wheel...doesn't work). Also that instead of actually building a radial system or augmenting preexisting travel patterns, we tended to rely on faulty reports (and faultier politicians) to try and dictate travel patterns and planning of our threadbare system.

The concept of 'fostering' reverse commutes to nonexistent CBDs isn't anything new. The first time it happened was probably in the 60s when instead of building an E/W line through downtown, we decided to bypass downtown and build it through uptown. Then we had decades of attempts to connect Centres using faulty projections (not unlike the current YNSE). And the last time it happened? A York Region politician became a de facto planner, concocted a scheme in a hotel room that had us amend an EA to spend ~$1bn tunneling 2.5km below nothingness to some fields, then later admitted the scheme was for his "political prospects". I'm sure you see "great value in nurturing" an admitted pork barrel, but hopefully most don't.

But you're talking about a line on a map. You're not talking about the realities of tunneling under Yonge.
There is no such reality. they should have left room under Yonge back in the 50s but they didn't. Personally, I'd love to see an express line that stopped at, say, Finch, Sheppard, Eg, St. Clair and Bloor but it's a technical impossibility.

Good idea - not possible. Best to move on.
If you're down on flying cars maybe you can get behind transporter technology?
(Both are more likely than a new Yonge subway line, I am sincerely sorry to say.)

Another one of your TJ "facts" I see. It might not be a good idea to tunnel an express line below Yonge, and I sure as hell would never support it. But I'd like to hear why you assert as fact that it's technically impossible.

Deeper you go, more expensive it is. I'm pretty sure there are concrete reasons (no pun intended) that a new Yonge line is simply not possible.

In theory itmight make sense to do a parallel line on Mt Pleasant or Avenue or whatever but, at best, you're talking about something 50 years out. Best to deal with the problems and possibilities we actually have in the present.

Here's a Steve Munro (!) bit from a few years back. Take with a grain of salt, if you like:

Ah, I see. Last page you insulted Steve and basically insinuated he's a biased liar, called him an "armchair engineer", but now rely on past quotes of his to save face on your own armchair engineer-edness. Funny, I don't see him saying it's technically impossible to tunnel under Yonge, and the quote he was replying to was about a line "within 100m of the existing subway" (not below the subway).