[Cobra]

Sure, but by the same logic the DRL and Yonge Extension to Steeles aren't the provincial government's mandate to fix. If the city wants to build a transit system that only serves its own needs, they're free to fund it entirely on their own with their own revenue tools. If they want help from other levels of government to pay for it, they have to build it in a way that's acceptable to those other levels of government.

Why is everyone keep missing the the following 2 points

• Ridership isn't even close to justify the extension
• the O&M being dumped on the TTC only

 

[crs1026]

I don't think a solution with an LRT-to-subway transfer at Steeles is desirable. I used to like that option, but after more thinking, can see a number of drawbacks in it:

I haven't cross referenced this thread with the Scarborough thread to see how this analysis lines up with comments over there.....but.....it throws a whole lot of heated debate on the Line 2 extension out the window if we are not willing to ask for a transfer on the north end up where the ridership transitions from full subway to lighter rail/BRT

Good for goose, good for gander.

- Paul

 

[salsa]

You know my position on Scarborough

#1-SRT refurbishment with extension
#2-Scarborough-Crosstown merger
#3-3 Stop subway

I hate the 1 stop plan

I know. I was simply commenting about the complete bastardization of the planning process in Scarborough.

 

[BMO]

Why is everyone keep missing the the following 2 points

• Ridership isn't even close to justify the extension
• the O&M being dumped on the TTC only

I haven't seen any concrete proof from anyone confirming the second point. And I'm HIGHLY skeptical of your first point. If you a build a transit extension only when the extension will be at capacity for a given transit technology it actually creates a scenario where that very form of transit is unsuitable. It's been so long since I've last seen the ridership projections I can't recall, but I will say the extension provides other operation benefits. Having excess capacity on the extension will further alleviate crowding downstream by speeding up terminal loading and alighting and improve the service further down the line. This should alleviate the extra 3-5 minutes added to a trip between Sheppard and Finch currently. Also the extra tracks by RHC will allow some trains to be stored there for other operation efficiencies for operations as well. All this on top of the obvious network connectivity between multi-modal options at RHC to local, regional, and express transit.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Sure, but by the same logic the DRL and Yonge Extension to Steeles aren't the provincial government's mandate to fix. If the city wants to build a transit system that only serves its own needs, they're free to fund it entirely on their own with their own revenue tools. If they want help from other levels of government to pay for it, they have to build it in a way that's acceptable to those other levels of government.

Why is everyone keep missing the the following 2 points

• Ridership isn't even close to justify the extension
• the O&M being dumped on the TTC only

The DRL is critical to the econonomy, completely different from the vote buying excerise that is the subway extension.

You know my position on Scarborough

#1-SRT refurbishment with extension
#2-Scarborough-Crosstown merger
#3-3 Stop subway

I hate the 1 stop plan

Agreed.

Nice posts, Cobra.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

How are people pushing for this and saying Sheppard East and Scarborough are not viable?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Wow... Then Dupont Street needs a subway

I'll assume the emoji means you're joking rather than being purposely obtuse.

First, there IS a subway station at Dupont Street.
Second, the point is simply that population growth (and thereby 905 riders going to Finch) is happening even if you do nothing.

you can say it's York Region's problem if you like, but it won't help you get a seat at Eglinton.

What happens north of Steeles isn't the city's mandate to fix. York have options to address that, that's not the TTC or Toronto's job to do it for York Region. I really don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

If I'm a Barrie resident who drives south on Yonge and gets stuck in traffic from Highway 7 to Finch, I don't give a hoot whose mandate you think it is to fix it. Transit doesn't respect borders or mandates. Everyone has to do their part with TDM and supply management. I don't know what's hard to understand about that.

It says York Region Transportation department. I don't see the city of Toronto logo.

Jeeze louise - pardonnez moi for thinking you'd look at the WORDS instead of the LOGOS. Lemme help:

So, they collaborated on it and agreed YR would take lead. Is it sufficiently clear that the staff of these municipalities disagree with your "mandate" concept of traffic management?

Toronto shouldn't have to pay for the O&M north of Steeles nor being force to pay to build a subway they clearly don't need.

And yet they have an approved Secondary Plan recognizing the need for the subway. WEIRD!
And yet council approved it. WEIRD!

As for O&M, you don't know it will be on Toronto because that hasn't been determined. They may well, as part of an actual funding agreement, require YR to contribute. Right now, yes, you have the Spadina agreement to use as a precedent, but you don't know what will actually happen here. As I've said, I have no problem with YR having to take that on.

(I see BMO beat me to this point as I was typing. Good. You keep saying it as if it's a fact. It is not.)

If YRT is so convinced that a subway is viable, it would have been planned as such but it would bankrupt York Region due to low ridership. The ridership even as of 2031 isn't even close to warrant a subway.
I don't have to explain anything in regards to YR funding a subway.

You do if you're going to say something ridiculous like, "York Region should fund its own subway," which you did.
Fact is that if they did:
-they'd compete, rather than work with, toronto to obtain funding from the very same sources
-it would be a ridiculous, inefficient waste to develop a 4km subway
-it would still dump riders onto TTC, either at Steeles or Finch

Hyperbolic nonsense and a real lack of understanding of how and why the subway ended up on the table in the first place. I'll mention only - because few here seem to remember it - that it was NOT York Region's idea. It was the province who surprised them with it, while they were set to start building BRT lanes there. Blaming them for meeting provincial policy and asking when they're getting the necessary infrastructure they were promised is similarly nonsensical.

If you want to throw out the LRT idea, OK. I've said I'm open to seeing comparative studies when certain people here have said it wasn't done. I'm not going to reiterate or re-explain how that alters the subway-centric planning context that's now in place, in Markham, Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Toronto; but it does. But, I'm fine with it if it will appease anyone who thinks the ship hasn't already sailed there.

I haven't cross referenced this thread with the Scarborough thread to see how this analysis lines up with comments over there.....but.....it throws a whole lot of heated debate on the Line 2 extension out the window if we are not willing to ask for a transfer on the north end up where the ridership transitions from full subway to lighter rail/BRT

Again, look at the history of this has unfolded.

How are people pushing for this and saying Sheppard East and Scarborough are not viable?

Again, look at a map, look at the planning that's in place already.

If you can't understand the difference between a 6km underground tunnel beneath Scarborough - where projected growth has largely been stagnant and where no new residential units are currently planned - and a 6km extension under a contiguous, urban Yonge Street corridor where major intensification is both happening and planned, I can't help.

But my answer to your question is: easily.
(At least in regards to SSE.)

 

[Cobra]

I haven't seen any concrete proof from anyone confirming the second point.

That's how it is for the Vaughan extension.

And I'm HIGHLY skeptical of your first point.

It's debatable. The actual ridership is nowhere to be found in the EA, so we don't really know. They point out (assumption?) that 20% of the 42k ridership would be due to the extension, using their assumption, that's 8400...and how much of that is actually York Region? That's nowhere near subway level.

If you a build a transit extension only when the extension will be at capacity for a given transit technology it actually creates a scenario where that very form of transit is unsuitable. It's been so long since I've last seen the ridership projections I can't recall, but I will say the extension provides other operation benefits. Having excess capacity on the extension will further alleviate crowding downstream by speeding up terminal loading and alighting and improve the service further down the line. This should alleviate the extra 3-5 minutes added to a trip between Sheppard and Finch currently. Also the extra tracks by RHC will allow some trains to be stored there for other operation efficiencies for operations as well. All this on top of the obvious network connectivity between multi-modal options at RHC to local, regional, and express transit.

I understand all of that, but I'm applying the same criteria to a Richmond Hill subway than we are to a Scarborough or Sheppard subway. I'd just like to see more consistency here because if we judge this subway on the same basis as anywhere else within the city, LRT should have been the best option in a cost-benefit scenario.

 

[Cobra]

How are people pushing for this and saying Sheppard East and Scarborough are not viable?

Exactly and people in those corridors are accused of being "entitled", "dumb" and being "unreasonable". There's no way they would listen to whatever experts are saying in term of ridership and scientific data & studies when they see subways in the middle of nowhere being built to Richmond Hill and Vaughan...underground

 

[BMO]

It's debatable. The actual ridership is nowhere to be found in the EA, so we don't really know. They point out (assumption?) that 20% of the 42k ridership would be due to the extension, using their assumption, that's 8400...and how much of that is actually York Region? That's nowhere near subway level.

Not saying your math doesn't check out, but based on what you've wrote I would assume 20% would be riders added. The real ridership of the extension will largely shift a bunch of passengers currently using Finch to stations further north so I'd make the assumption that you would see higher than 8,000 riders using the extension.

 

[amnesiajune]

Why is everyone keep missing the the following 2 points

• Ridership isn't even close to justify the extension
• the O&M being dumped on the TTC only

Ridership projections absolutely justify the Yonge Extension. It would have more AM Peak ridership than DRL Long - 21,000 AM peak southbound passengers north of Finch (DRL Long would have 19,200).

They point out (assumption?) that 20% of the 42k ridership would be due to the extension, using their assumption, that's 8400...and how much of that is actually York Region?

That 20% is new ridership - about 2,000 trips would be people who take transit instead of driving, and about 6,000 would be people who take the TTC instead of Go Transit. The other 13,000 riders would be people who currently take YRT or the 53/60 bus to Finch. See page 44 in the link.

 

[Cobra]

Second, the point is simply that population growth (and thereby 905 riders going to Finch) is happening even if you do nothing.

Good for York! But I don't want the TTC to be stuck to pay for the O&M with an underused subway outside of city limits on their own. Again, you are conveniently ignoring this

If I'm a Barrie resident who drives south on Yonge and gets stuck in traffic from Highway 7 to Finch, I don't give a hoot whose mandate you think it is to fix it. Transit doesn't respect borders or mandates. Everyone has to do their part with TDM and supply management. I don't know what's hard to understand about that.

If you're from Barrie, why on earth aren't you using the GO train???

And yet they have an approved Secondary Plan recognizing the need for the subway. WEIRD!
And yet council approved it. WEIRD!

That's the province plan, everyone knows that

As for O&M, you don't know it will be on Toronto because that hasn't been determined. They may well, as part of an actual funding agreement, require YR to contribute. Right now, yes, you have the Spadina agreement to use as a precedent, but you don't know what will actually happen here. As I've said, I have no problem with YR having to take that on.

You do if you're going to say something ridiculous like, "York Region should fund its own subway," which you did.
Fact is that if they did:
-they'd compete, rather than work with, toronto to obtain funding from the very same sources
-it would be a ridiculous, inefficient waste to develop a 4km subway
-it would still dump riders onto TTC, either at Steeles or Finch

Hyperbolic nonsense and a real lack of understanding of how and why the subway ended up on the table in the first place. I'll mention only - because few here seem to remember it - that it was NOT York Region's idea. It was the province who surprised them with it, while they were set to start building BRT lanes there. Blaming them for meeting provincial policy and asking when they're getting the necessary infrastructure they were promised is similarly nonsensical.

If you want to throw out the LRT idea, OK. I've said I'm open to seeing comparative studies when certain people here have said it wasn't done. I'm not going to reiterate or re-explain how that alters the subway-centric planning context that's now in place, in Markham, Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Toronto; but it does. But, I'm fine with it if it will appease anyone who thinks the ship hasn't already sailed there.

Again, ignoring the economics in this. YR paying their FAIR share of the O&M would change the dialogue, until then...it will be resisted

Again, look at a map, look at the planning that's in place already.

If you can't understand the difference between a 6km underground tunnel beneath Scarborough - where projected growth has largely been stagnant and where no new residential units are currently planned - and a 6km extension under a contiguous, urban Yonge Street corridor where major intensification is both happening and planned, I can't help.

But my answer to your question is: easily.
(At least in regards to SSE.)

Politics derailed the SSE. At least under the 3 stop subway, the ridership WAS ALREADY THERE. For Richmond Hill, it doesn't exist yet.

 

[Cobra]

Not saying your math doesn't check out, but based on what you've wrote I would assume 20% would be riders added. The real ridership of the extension will largely shift a bunch of passengers currently using Finch to stations further north so I'd make the assumption that you would see higher than 8,000 riders using the extension.

And this is my problem with this EA. It's not our job to speculate, it should have been clearly demonstrated and the project should have been evaluated against the LRT. Unless I see an EA saying that Richmond Hill has the ridership for a subway and LRT is insufficient, no way I support it. It needs to be evaluated as thoroughly as SSE, Sheppard, Finch and Eglinton

 

[Cobra]

Ridership projections absolutely justify the Yonge Extension. It would have more AM Peak ridership than DRL Long - 21,000 AM peak southbound passengers north of Finch (DRL Long would have 19,200).

Where are the numbers between RHC and Steeles? Sure you're boarding at RHC station is high but the other stations ridership are really bad. That's the Sheppard Line all over again with Don Mills and Sheppard-Yonge carrying the bulk of the ridership.

What about the cost in 2017 dollars?

All I'm saying, we need a new update, dare I say a proper EA assessing all mode of transit in a cost-benefit scenario

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Good for York! But I don't want the TTC to be stuck to pay for the O&M with an underused subway outside of city limits on their own. Again, you are conveniently ignoring this

Again, ,you're conveniently ignoring the relationship between past/present/future.

There is no agreement on the Yonge extension, ergo all I'm ignoring is a hypothetical you're asserting as a done deal. Yes, you have the Spadina etension - a deal reached 10 years ago. This is flimsy as a key pillar of your argument, however. All I can do is ask, "how does your position change if YR contributes O&M?"

In the meantime the situation is NOT that there is an agreement Toronto will pay it, and you want to see that changed.
The situation is that there IS NO DEAL yet. The dialogue has not yet happened and for our part we agree YR should contribute, so proceed as you see fit.

If you're from Barrie, why on earth aren't you using the GO train???

I'm visiting a friend in Richmond hill and then heading to the nearest Burrito Boyz. either way - who do I blame for this traffic, eh?

People can only use Yonge Street for going to work? People in Barrie don't have cars? What?

(And I guess we're skipping over that you were wrong about the joint transpo study, right? Let that be a lesson kids - when you're given assigned reading, look past the logos!)

That's the province plan, everyone knows that

The City of Toronto Yonge North Secondary Plan is provincial?
No - I don't think anyone else knows that.

And city Council's vote to approve the EA, that's also provincial?

Politics derailed the SSE. At least under the 3 stop subway, the ridership WAS ALREADY THERE. For Richmond Hill, it doesn't exist yet.

Suddenly we grasp cause and effect?

And you're wrong about the ridership as BMO has explained. But I know this is the great circular canard of this thread which gives me constant entertainment:
-There is not enough ridership to justify the subway!
-There is so much ridership it will overwhelm the system and people at Yonge/Bloor will be pushed onto the tracks and die!

Both arguments appear often on the same page. The real winners get both into a single post.