[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I feel like DRL long should be a top priority over this extension, which is not something we really need at the moment.

Just because we need DRL long doesn't mean "we" (as a region, trying to promote suburban, transit-oriented intensification) don't "really need" this extension. The fact that Toronto has neglected to build adequate infrastructure for a generation doesn't negate the existence of other needs.

I was on Yonge, north of Steeles yesterday and from that single point, simply craning my head 360 degrees (not all at once!), I could see 8 buses on the road. Often at Steeles I can see 12 or more, all within sight, all on a corridor for which massive intensification is envisioned and desirable. Waiting 20 years to build the YNSE won't mean fewer people getting on the subway at Finch, it will just mean I'll see 20 buses at once instead (and more pedestrians with asthma, probably). You can try to choke off the development by withholding public transit, I guess, but I don't know how far it will get you. This is the great fallacy of the "we can't build the extension" (or, worse, the "we don't need the extension") argument.

It's funny how everyone now insists we need DRL Long, an idea that only exists because the oft-derided Metrolinx decided to study the entire, holistic problem of congestion/relief on the Yonge line while Toronto City Council was busy changing its mind 20X on Transit City and/or the Scarborugh Subway over the course of 10 years during which even the DRL Short was a backburner project, only simmering on the stove at all because everyone realized the YNSE -which "we" do "need" would push Line 1 to its capacity breaking point. The ironies abound.

In the meantime 5-minute frequencies are almost certainly impossible on the RH GO line which is already at the bottom of the RER list due to the track ownership and flooding issues. Two-way, all-day GO is needed too but as a relief solution, it's been a red herring since the first time someone proposed it on this thread, probably on Page 1.

Build the YNSE, build the DRL as long as you can. Find the money, Do them both soon.

EDIT: And yeah, as just posted, there's the $9B + both Ford and Wynne (FWIW!) have committed to build it. Horwath...we'll see. So, the funding is largely explicitly committed already though, sure, things change.

 

[rbt]

I'm confused. The project has funding.

Everyone seems to forget the $9 billion in funding announced shortly before the election. It funded this, the DRL, and Waterfront LRT. By the sounds of it the PCs will keep the first two and re-allocate their portion of the Waterfront LRT money elsewhere.

It's not funded. There is a funding pool available that it might pull from but nobody has actually committed to it yet (beyond a hand-wave that's fully retractable when they realize there's still a huge cash shortage to build everything on the table).

TTC has about $15B in projects that they'd like funded over the next decade, not including SmartTrack, but does include around $6B in SOGR work (some of which isn't optional if SSE is to go ahead).

We're at the good feelings part where there's plenty of cash for design work and nobody has to commit to actual contracts. Actual decisions will need to be made to either top-up the $10B in funding we're short over the next decade or cull the list.

 

[rbt]

Doesn't RER on the Barrie and Richmond Hill Lines relieve Line 1 more than Barrie and Stouffville Lines though?

Possibly. Either way, I would have liked to see Metrolinx study what it would take to run high capacity (what TTC would define as metro level service), high integration service on their corridors. The goal being a resulting level of service rather than a reduction of capital costs (which was the focus of previous subway alternative study efforts).

 

[drum118]

Doesn't RER on the Barrie and Richmond Hill Lines relieve Line 1 more than Barrie and Stouffville Lines though?

Only to a point if all riders are going from end to end or live near the line. Otherwise, not going to help Yonge since riders aren't going end to end in the first place.

Even if the DRL is built to Steeles and to hwy 7 in the future, Yonge will be bad or worse than it is today.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It's not funded. There is a funding pool available that it might pull from but nobody has actually committed to it yet (beyond a hand-wave that's fully retractable when they realize there's still a huge cash shortage to build everything on the table).

TTC has about $15B in projects that they'd like funded over the next decade, not including SmartTrack, but does include around $6B in SOGR work (some of which isn't optional if SSE is to go ahead).

We're at the good feelings part where there's plenty of cash for design work and nobody has to commit to actual contracts. Actual decisions will need to be made to either top-up the $10B in funding we're short over the next decade or cull the list.

The $9 billion is the provincial + federal component for the lines. Total lines costs are about 12 billion. So existing funding is about 75% of the way there.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Mods, request to rename thread to (In Design)?

 

[syn]

Just because we need DRL long doesn't mean "we" (as a region, trying to promote suburban, transit-oriented intensification) don't "really need" this extension. The fact that Toronto has neglected to build adequate infrastructure for a generation doesn't negate the existence of other needs.

I was on Yonge, north of Steeles yesterday and from that single point, simply craning my head 360 degrees (not all at once!), I could see 8 buses on the road. Often at Steeles I can see 12 or more, all within sight, all on a corridor for which massive intensification is envisioned and desirable. Waiting 20 years to build the YNSE won't mean fewer people getting on the subway at Finch, it will just mean I'll see 20 buses at once instead (and more pedestrians with asthma, probably). You can try to choke off the development by withholding public transit, I guess, but I don't know how far it will get you. This is the great fallacy of the "we can't build the extension" (or, worse, the "we don't need the extension") argument.

It's funny how everyone now insists we need DRL Long, an idea that only exists because the oft-derided Metrolinx decided to study the entire, holistic problem of congestion/relief on the Yonge line while Toronto City Council was busy changing its mind 20X on Transit City and/or the Scarborugh Subway over the course of 10 years during which even the DRL Short was a backburner project, only simmering on the stove at all because everyone realized the YNSE -which "we" do "need" would push Line 1 to its capacity breaking point. The ironies abound.

In the meantime 5-minute frequencies are almost certainly impossible on the RH GO line which is already at the bottom of the RER list due to the track ownership and flooding issues. Two-way, all-day GO is needed too but as a relief solution, it's been a red herring since the first time someone proposed it on this thread, probably on Page 1.

Build the YNSE, build the DRL as long as you can. Find the money, Do them both soon.

EDIT: And yeah, as just posted, there's the $9B + both Ford and Wynne (FWIW!) have committed to build it. Horwath...we'll see. So, the funding is largely explicitly committed already though, sure, things change.

The idea has existed for decades, long before Metrolinx exists.

A Yonge North subway extension isn't needed, certainly not now, and certainly not given other transit needs. Regional transit expansion is what will serve areas like Richmond Hill best when it comes to downtown travel. For local intensification LRTs would be a far investment than subways at this point - suburban subways have demonstrated this time and time again. There simply isn't the demand, and it does little for local transit.

I have no problem with this extension, assuming it's constructed when it makes sense. Now is not that time.

 

[rbt]

The $9 billion is the provincial + federal component for the lines. Total lines costs are about 12 billion. So existing funding is about 75% of the way there.

That's true, until you add Sheppard and modified designs for SSE, Eglinton West, and Eglinton East into the mix; now you're back to 50% or even below (SmartTrack doesn't appear on the TTC list but funding comes from that pool).

Simply put, the promised expansion over the next 10 years is well above the promised funding over the next 10 years for all parties. Something will be built somewhere; but which specific projects will be finished in 2028 is still very much up in the air.

 

[syn]

That's true, until you add Sheppard and modified designs for SSE, Eglinton West, and Eglinton East into the mix; now you're back to 50% or even below (SmartTrack doesn't appear on the TTC list but funding comes from that pool).

Simply put, the promised expansion over the next 10 years is well above the promised funding over the next 10 years for all parties. Something will be built somewhere; but which specific projects will be finished in 2028 is still very much up in the air.

Exactly.

If Ford wins and keeps pushing a 3 stop Scarborough extension, you can kiss much of the extra funding goodbye.

 

[Cobra]

• I'm starting to think he might actually cut Smarttrack... I could see them commit only to Eglinton West
• Waterfront LRT will be cut
• I don't buy that Eglinton East gets done, let alone underground.
• SSE 3 stops gets done.
• DRL short gets done or they can kiss 2022 goodbye
• Jane is dead to them

What will they prioritize between Sheppard East, YNSE & Relief Long?
Depends how much for granted they take the 905 vote. Is the subway a deal breaker for York after they just got Vaughan? I doubt it... They can procrastinate on it. Building YNSE forces them to start Relief Long. Not doing it, allows them to delay Relief Long.

They are mad enough to get Sheppard East done ahead of those 2.

1-Sheppard East
2-YNSE
3-Relief Long

 

[Streety McCarface]

The idea has existed for decades, long before Metrolinx exists.

A Yonge North subway extension isn't needed, certainly not now, and certainly not given other transit needs. Regional transit expansion is what will serve areas like Richmond Hill best when it comes to downtown travel. For local intensification LRTs would be a far investment than subways at this point - suburban subways have demonstrated this time and time again. There simply isn't the demand, and it does little for local transit.

I have no problem with this extension, assuming it's constructed when it makes sense. Now is not that time.

As much as I support DRL long (I really do, the Yonge line is a sh!tshow right now and it opens up possibilities for a new yard), we shouldn't diminish the viability of the YNSE. A corridor that sees 2000 buses travel down it daily is in dire need of relief. It definitely makes more sense from a transit relief perspective than a Sheppard East subway (but not in terms of inducing demand).

It's interesting to note that the displacement of those 2K buses will not fill completely fill the subway trains. At best, (assuming all buses are completely full), 120,000 passengers are expected to ride the extension without creating extra stress on the line. Metrolinx' estimates project an additional 40-80K passengers to use the extension within 10 years in addition to those 120,000 passengers. If RLN displaces ~2000 buses (best case scenario), then there will be room on the Yonge line for at least 20 years.

I don't actually understand why people are so freaked out about the subway ridership on the Yonge line, most world-class cities have subway lines that have trains completely full, many having to wait for 2-3 trains to go by before getting on. It's not comfortable, yes, but people feel safe. RL should be the main priority, but due to the political nature of the city, I would actually encourage the retrofit of the yonge line with Platform edge doors while DRL, and YN are built to prevent accidental deaths.

 

[44 North]

It's not funded. There is a funding pool available that it might pull from but nobody has actually committed to it yet (beyond a hand-wave that's fully retractable when they realize there's still a huge cash shortage to build everything on the table).

Wynne signed Scarpiti's shovel. In York Region I think that's the equivalent of signing in blood. I only know this because last week I heard a bumbling fool on 1010 and realized it was Markham's mayor talking about his shovel.

• I'm starting to think he might actually cut Smarttrack... I could see them commit only to Eglinton West
• Waterfront LRT will be cut
• I don't buy that Eglinton East gets done, let alone underground.
• SSE 3 stops gets done.
• DRL short gets done or they can kiss 2022 goodbye
• Jane is dead to them

What will they prioritize between Sheppard East, YNSE & Relief Long?
Depends how much for granted they take the 905 vote. Is the subway a deal breaker for York after they just got Vaughan? I doubt it... They can procrastinate on it. Building YNSE forces them to start Relief Long. Not doing it, allows them to delay Relief Long.

They are mad enough to get Sheppard East done ahead of those 2.

1-Sheppard East
2-YNSE
3-Relief Long

Jane I feel could have legs as a western portion of RL/Queen Subway. At least as a promise. Much in the same way as RLN/Long goes through swing ridings that benefit the PCs, so too could a long western RL. Again as promised, not necessarily realistic.

 

[Amare]

I don't actually understand why people are so freaked out about the subway ridership on the Yonge line, most world-class cities have subway lines that have trains completely full, many having to wait for 2-3 trains to go by before getting on. It's not comfortable, yes, but people feel safe. RL should be the main priority, but due to the political nature of the city, I would actually encourage the retrofit of the yonge line with Platform edge doors while DRL, and YN are built to prevent accidental deaths.

Most world class cities have alternatives to their overcrowded rapid transit corridors, Toronto simply does not. If the Yonge line was shut down for an hour or two, the city would literally be paralyzed with people being unable to travel anywhere and a simple 15-20 min commute to bloat upwards to an hour or two.

As our population continues to increase, this will simply continue to put increased stress on the Yonge line and without any alternatives, it will effectively cripple both the downtown core and midtown. Just imagine your 2-3 train wait expand to 7-8 trains; by that time you could probably get to your destination by biking or walking more effectively than using the subway.

With the city's limited financial resources, it's best to put the money where you can solve the biggest problem. The overcrowding on Yonge takes a much bigger precedence over the Yonge line extension 10 times out of 10.

 

[Cobra]

Jane I feel could have legs as a western portion of RL/Queen Subway. At least as a promise. Much in the same way as RLN/Long goes through swing ridings that benefit the PCs, so too could a long western RL. Again as promised, not necessarily realistic.

If they ever get serious about relief west, Dufferin makes more sense

 

[Hopkins123]

If they ever get serious about relief west, Dufferin makes more sense

Keele-Weston