[Sunnyside]

So really what we are saying is that the government is prepared to spend tax dollars to help certain developers sell units and make profits, but is not prepared to spend tax dollars in another area that helps existing citizens and isn't helping some other developers make mad dollarbucks?

That's a mischaracterization of what's happening for sure.

It is not because Cummer cannot be intensified alone that it is not receiving a station from Metrolinx. That is one of many factors. Predicating any argument is that it is freaking $500M, so the case has to be really, really good. And it obviously wasn't up to snuff for MX/the Province.

First, TOD isn't just to give developers a profit. These are provincially mandated areas for developers to build so things can be planned and built how we want. The developers making money is at worst, a side effect of maximizing new infra we are paying for, and at best, constitutes economic stimulus- something worth far more than just a profit margin to the province.

When asking a question about "the public good" as you are, recognize that recouping costs like this is for our benefit. To fit into the YNSE's "balance sheet", Cummer would need really high ridership potential (native density/bus connections, of which there is hardly either), social need, or development potential- none of which exists. Furthermore, it is hardly 500m from Finch Station.

The only alternative is to somehow add more density to the already-overwhelming TOCs planned (which already compensate for undevelopable stations).

I would like to see Cummer just as much as anyone else, but it simply isn't going to happen at this price point. $500M could buy us a lot of other, more beneficial things.

 

[MrGoose]

My fault for casting the net so wide
But I don't think it would have worked through Thornhill and if someone wants to argue that it certainly could have, then I would counter it would have worked equally well (or poorly) on the Willowdale (Finch-Steeles) section. If someone is going to argue it should be aboveground north of Steeles, I'd still like to see the logic as to why the same thing wouldn't be true south of Steeles (where, among things, there isn't a Heritage Conservation District).

Why wouldn't an elevated train work through Thornhill? Yonge is still a stroad there too. The same argument about Yonge north of Hwy 7 also applies to Yonge north of York Mills.

From York mills to Newmarket, Yonge is a 6 lane stroad with center turning lanes. Take out those center turning lanes, do protected uturns and lefts at major intersections and you can have a median elevated train running down Yonge Street. Its cheaper and there is no beauty worth protecting in North York and York Region

And the same logic of "Old" Richmond Hill applies to "Old" Thornhill too. Except Yonge is still a 6 lane stroad in Thornhill.

Honestly, this logic applies to every major arterial/stroad in Toronto's suburbs. The Sheppard extension should be elevated. Finch west should have been elevated. The Eglinton Crosstown should have been elevated. Elevate a Lawrence Crosstown! Criss cross the city with skytrains! Fill them with bike parking! Only then will we be freed from the yoke of the personal automobile!

Elevate a HWY 401 HSR too!

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

So really what we are saying is that the government is prepared to spend tax dollars to help certain developers sell units and make profits, but is not prepared to spend tax dollars in another area that helps existing citizens and isn't helping some other developers make mad dollarbucks?

See what @Sunnyside said. It's not at all about helping developers at the expense of existing residents.
It's about a $500m station with borderline utility and whether developers can be made to pay the bill or whether taxpayers have to, or whether it shouldn't be built at all. You seem to be arguing that if developers won't pay for it, taxpayers should, which is fair - but Metrolinx's position is that they don't think it's needed, there are no developer $ to be leveraged and if Toronto wants to spend its tax $, it can.

Why wouldn't an elevated train work through Thornhill? Yonge is still a stroad there too. The same argument about Yonge north of Hwy 7 also applies to Yonge north of York Mills.

From York mills to Newmarket, Yonge is a 6 lane stroad with center turning lanes. Take out those center turning lanes, do protected uturns and lefts at major intersections and you can have a median elevated train running down Yonge Street. Its cheaper and there is no beauty worth protecting in North York and York Region

I dunno. It's a moot point because it's not happening and doesn't appear to have been seriously considered. I could see how an LRT might have worked, as it does on Eglinton, if we leave aside capacity issues. (And leaving aside that Crosstown is underground in its most urbanized areas.)

But a faull subway? You can't have that rumbling down the middle of a main street, which is suppose to urbanize and pedestrianize. I don't see it, not with our current trainsets etc. and the ship has sailed anyway.

 

[MrGoose]

See what @Sunnyside said. It's not at all about helping developers at the expense of existing residents.
It's about a $500m station with borderline utility and whether developers can be made to pay the bill or whether taxpayers have to, or whether it shouldn't be built at all. You seem to be arguing that if developers won't pay for it, taxpayers should, which is fair - but Metrolinx's position is that they don't think it's needed, there are no developer $ to be leveraged and if Toronto wants to spend its tax $, it can.


I dunno. It's a moot point because it's not happening and doesn't appear to have been seriously considered. I could see how an LRT might have worked, as it does on Eglinton, if we leave aside capacity issues. (And leaving aside that Crosstown is underground in its most urbanized areas.)

But a faull subway? You can't have that rumbling down the middle of a main street, which is suppose to urbanize and pedestrianize. I don't see it, not with our current trainsets etc. and the ship has sailed anyway.

Why not have a full subway running down the stroad? Its not going to be louder than the car traffic thats already there.

Why would a subway running down the road prevent urbanization? Japan, Chicago and Vancouver run elevated trains along their roads and urban areas too without much trouble.

 

[Sunnyside]

See what @Sunnyside said. It's not at all about helping developers at the expense of existing residents.
It's about a $500m station with borderline utility and whether developers can be made to pay the bill or whether taxpayers have to, or whether it shouldn't be built at all. You seem to be arguing that if developers won't pay for it, taxpayers should, which is fair - but Metrolinx's position is that they don't think it's needed, there are no developer $ to be leveraged and if Toronto wants to spend its tax $, it can.


I dunno. It's a moot point because it's not happening and doesn't appear to have been seriously considered. I could see how an LRT might have worked, as it does on Eglinton, if we leave aside capacity issues. (And leaving aside that Crosstown is underground in its most urbanized areas.)

But a faull subway? You can't have that rumbling down the middle of a main street, which is suppose to urbanize and pedestrianize. I don't see it, not with our current trainsets etc. and the ship has sailed anyway.

I would add that some of this is due to Yonge being Yonge- lots of old community pockets, lots of weird terrain, lots of affluence. And of course it is the regions cultural centrepoint even up here. There are few arterials where I’d say elevated is a less-than-stellar idea, but Yonge is definitely one of them. It’s much better where you can start entirely from scratch, which isn’t the case here.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Why not have a full subway running down the stroad? Its not going to be louder than the car traffic thats already there.

Having sat on patios on Yonge Street in this area, I assure you this is objectively false.
I don't want to necessarily trust random googling but a quick search suggests that a subway makes about 91db of noise and background traffic is around 75 (give or take). I have no doubt that if you were sitting at Yonge and Bloor, just minding your own business, and a subway rumbled down the street, you'd darned well notice the difference.

Why would a subway running down the road prevent urbanization? Japan, Chicago and Vancouver run elevated trains along their roads and urban areas too without much trouble.

When is the last time Chicago built an elevated train? Was it before or after Al Capone went to prison?
I could equally point out there are cities (New York comes to mind) that have taken down elevated rail and I doubt there's anyone there who thinks it was better when a subway was rumbling loudly overhead., the street below shrouded in darrkness..
And Skytrain isn't really the same kind of train as what we are running but, gee, I wonder how quiet they are?
Oh right - more than 100db. Perfect white noise for those patio patrons. Oddly, not everyone is thrilled...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/skytrain-riding-noise-levels-1.5251507

Paul Shoebridge doesn't seem to like it much!

'Anxiety, anger inducing sound': East Vancouver man says SkyTrain screeching hitting new levels

A Vancouver man says noise from the SkyTrain line near his home in the Commercial Drive neighbourhood has gotten unbearable.

vancouver.citynews.ca

Who wouldn't want that running down literally the most imporant main street in the entire country, right as suburban municpaltiies are trying to introduce a mix of uses, pedestrianize the environment etc.

With each new post, you're actually really convincing me much more how wrong this idea would have been for Yonge Street.

 

[T3G]

I would also add that saying elevated is fine because the thoroughfare in question is already a stroad misses an opportunity to make the thoroughfare more walkable. I would much rather we narrowed these suburban stroads, razed as much of them as possible, and built anew with warm, welcoming architecture, rather than add more noise into the mix.

 

[MrGoose]

Having sat on patios on Yonge Street in this area, I assure you this is objectively false.
I don't want to necessarily trust random googling but a quick search suggests that a subway makes about 91db of noise and background traffic is around 75 (give or take). I have no doubt that if you were sitting at Yonge and Bloor, just minding your own business, and a subway rumbled down the street, you'd darned well notice the difference.



When is the last time Chicago built an elevated train? Was it before or after Al Capone went to prison?
I could equally point out there are cities (New York comes to mind) that have taken down elevated rail and I doubt there's anyone there who thinks it was better when a subway was rumbling loudly overhead., the street below shrouded in darrkness..
And Skytrain isn't really the same kind of train as what we are running but, gee, I wonder how quiet they are?
Oh right - more than 100db. Perfect white noise for those patio patrons. Oddly, not everyone is thrilled...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/skytrain-riding-noise-levels-1.5251507

Paul Shoebridge doesn't seem to like it much!

'Anxiety, anger inducing sound': East Vancouver man says SkyTrain screeching hitting new levels

A Vancouver man says noise from the SkyTrain line near his home in the Commercial Drive neighbourhood has gotten unbearable.

vancouver.citynews.ca

Who wouldn't want that running down literally the most imporant main street in the entire country, right as suburban municpaltiies are trying to introduce a mix of uses, pedestrianize the environment etc.

With each new post, you're actually really convincing me much more how wrong this idea would have been for Yonge Street.

I stand by my words that none of these "streetscapes" would be diminished if a skytrain was running down the middle.

None of these places should have outdoor dining next to them, nor should any of them be considered anything besides a car sewer.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I would also add that saying elevated is fine because the thoroughfare in question is already a stroad misses an opportunity to make the thoroughfare more walkable. I would much rather we narrowed these suburban stroads, razed as much of them as possible, and built anew with warm, welcoming architecture, rather than add more noise into the mix.

I should have included this link above too - the York Region streetscaping study for the area:

https://www.york.ca/media/77266/download

Generally speaking, the plan is to narrow the street, add trees and widen sidewalks.
Clearly the idea is to use the subway to leverage improvements to the urban/pedestrian realm, rather than using it to worsen an already hostile condition. It's hard to imagine any of this is improved by elevated subways rumbling by at 100db.

I stand by my words that none of these "streetscapes" would be diminished if a skytrain was running down the middle

Do you know what everyone of those streetscapes you posted has in common (Except maaaaybe the first one)?
They won't look anything like that in 5-10 years. Looking at a bad condition and saying, "It would'n't be much worse with a loud train in the middle of it," is not how planning is supposed to work.
Try to convince any of us that those streetscapes - once they've seen new development and new streetscaping - would be improved- by a train running down the middle. I'm happy to loop in Paul Shoebridge, and see if he has any thoughts.

EDIT: Just to add in this 2007 Google Streetview of your Yonge-Finch view. That condo on the left used to be a really crappy-looking No Frills. Over the past 15 years this has become a far more exciting area, with many pedestrians out and about in the evening. The idea it would have been better to stick an elevated train there strikes me as...unliklely.

 

[ARG1]

See what @Sunnyside said. It's not at all about helping developers at the expense of existing residents.
It's about a $500m station with borderline utility and whether developers can be made to pay the bill or whether taxpayers have to, or whether it shouldn't be built at all. You seem to be arguing that if developers won't pay for it, taxpayers should, which is fair - but Metrolinx's position is that they don't think it's needed, there are no developer $ to be leveraged and if Toronto wants to spend its tax $, it can.


I dunno. It's a moot point because it's not happening and doesn't appear to have been seriously considered. I could see how an LRT might have worked, as it does on Eglinton, if we leave aside capacity issues. (And leaving aside that Crosstown is underground in its most urbanized areas.)

But a faull subway? You can't have that rumbling down the middle of a main street, which is suppose to urbanize and pedestrianize. I don't see it, not with our current trainsets etc. and the ship has sailed anyway.

I will agree that an elevated HRT down Yonge Street in Thornhill might be a bit much, but that's where I draw the line. South of Clark and north of Royal Orchard is completely fair game and totally acceptable to elevate.

 

[wopchop]

That's a mischaracterization of what's happening for sure.

It is not because Cummer cannot be intensified alone that it is not receiving a station from Metrolinx. That is one of many factors. Predicating any argument is that it is freaking $500M, so the case has to be really, really good. And it obviously wasn't up to snuff for MX/the Province.

First, TOD isn't just to give developers a profit. These are provincially mandated areas for developers to build so things can be planned and built how we want. The developers making money is at worst, a side effect of maximizing new infra we are paying for, and at best, constitutes economic stimulus- something worth far more than just a profit margin to the province.

When asking a question about "the public good" as you are, recognize that recouping costs like this is for our benefit. To fit into the YNSE's "balance sheet", Cummer would need really high ridership potential (native density/bus connections, of which there is hardly either), social need, or development potential- none of which exists. Furthermore, it is hardly 500m from Finch Station.

The only alternative is to somehow add more density to the already-overwhelming TOCs planned (which already compensate for undevelopable stations).

I would like to see Cummer just as much as anyone else, but it simply isn't going to happen at this price point. $500M could buy us a lot of other, more beneficial things.

This entirely depends on how much of Royal Orchard station's budget is actually funded by the developments, do we know?
Everything that I have read has said that Provincial revenue from the TOCs will be used to fund it, but I have not seen something that confirms how much they expect it to be offset.

 

[Sunnyside]

This entirely depends on how much of Royal Orchard station's budget is actually funded by the developments, do we know?
Everything that I have read has said that Provincial revenue from the TOCs will be used to fund it, but I have not seen something that confirms how much they expect it to be offset.

I have no idea where one would find that. I am sure it is an approximation, of course- a few $100M or so over/under will be more realistic. Someone more aware than I could maybe fill some of this in.

I will say, the pickings were pretty good for this projects’ TOC sites. A mall, moderate industrial lands, and a series of massive plazas. Seems better than the TYSSE at a glance. Shifting the project to the RH Corridor also ensures we don’t have to ever tunnel under Yonge st again.

 

[innsertnamehere]

This entirely depends on how much of Royal Orchard station's budget is actually funded by the developments, do we know?
Everything that I have read has said that Provincial revenue from the TOCs will be used to fund it, but I have not seen something that confirms how much they expect it to be offset.

my understanding is all of it, mostly from revenue from the Yonge / 7 development which is absurdly dense. Lots of funds to collect from that area. It's like 40,000+ units.

 

[GenerationW]

Split the cost for Cummer with the province, 50-50 or 1/3-2/3.

I'm sure Doug and Olivia will figure it out. No, really!

 

[Sunnyside]

Split the cost for Cummer with the province, 50-50 or 1/3-2/3.

I'm sure Doug and Olivia will figure it out. No, really!

Sure, we could do that, but I don’t think the issue is necessarily if it’s too expensive for Toronto alone (though it likely is). It’s just a lot of money for any party to spend on questionable merits. The province is just not interested, period- splitting the cost doesn’t make it any better use of public money.

If that $500M can materialize between both levels of government, then it’s probably better spent on some other project. This is enough $ to build a good chunk of the WE LRT for instance.

Edit- or the SmartTrack stations.