[jcam]

I think this has been discussed here (somewhere) before, but I think the Leaside Spur Trail is still zoned in a way that it could be converted back to a transport corridor. You'd have about 140 homes (and one condo) that probably wouldn't be happy, but I wouldn't it be hard to justify a $1B tunnel here. IF Metrolinx someday decided to bring it back to get the more efficient route downtown, do they go surface level, trench, raised or tunnel? Or will it just not happen? My sibling's in-laws are one of those 140 homes.

 

[MrGoose]

I think this has been discussed here (somewhere) before, but I think the Leaside Spur Trail is still zoned in a way that it could be converted back to a transport corridor. You'd have about 140 homes (and one condo) that probably wouldn't be happy, but I wouldn't it be hard to justify a $1B tunnel here. IF Metrolinx someday decided to bring it back to get the more efficient route downtown, do they go surface level, trench, raised or tunnel? Or will it just not happen? My sibling's in-laws are one of those 140 homes.

Probably elevated, ala Davenport diamond.

 

[Deadpool X]

I also dont't think much of the idea of there being pedestrian access to a train that is supposed to be operated by a computer. I don't trust that a sensor would be able to pick up every person that strays across the path of the train, and no one else should, either.

These days $200 doorbells can tell not just between a person and an animal but they can even tell who that person is if you give sufficient access to the software. And of course, they can tell if that person is within the zone you specified or outside of it, answering your straying concern. Cars have been able to read the road markings (lanes) for a decade now.

For a subway system, a lot more money can be spent than $200 to make it a lot more foolproof. A computer won't sleep at the wheel or won't get distracted. Won't go on a strike either.

 

[T3G]

These days $200 doorbells can tell not just between a person and an animal but they can even tell who that person is if you give sufficient access to the software.

That's a nice theory, but in practice it's quite a bit less elegant than all that. As someone who owns one of these doorbells/camera systems and has fiddled extensively with the sensitivity of the detection settings, it still frequently reports that cars passing by are people at my door, and laundry drying in the wind or the porch swing swinging back and forth constitute motion in our backyard.

If this is what's supposed to convince me that a train will be able to detect a person, I am not convinced.

Cars have been able to read the road markings (lanes) for a decade now.

Yes, and they get it wrong sometimes. Just ask anyone who's actually had to use one how pleasant it is to have a computer autocorrect your steering motion for you.

 

[T3G]

I am not intentionally double posting, but my phone refused to continue typing so I had to reply in a new post. If a mod wishes to merge the 2 posts here please feel free.

Won't go on a strike either.

Nice anti union sentiment. So instead of paying people a livable wage and taking care of them as human beings should, we should instead throw them out of work. Fantastic idea.

What precisely do you envision everyone doing once they are thrown out of work? A lot of the people who cheerlead for AI taking over everything say that we'll now have infinite time for arts and culture, but as seen in the writers and actors strikes this summer, we can be certain our corporate ghouls - I mean overlords - will outsource that job to machines too.

 

[Deadpool X]

I am not intentionally double posting, but my phone refused to continue typing so I had to reply in a new post. If a mod wishes to merge the 2 posts here please feel free.


Nice anti union sentiment. So instead of paying people a livable wage and taking care of them as human beings should, we should instead throw them out of work. Fantastic idea.

What precisely do you envision everyone doing once they are thrown out of work? A lot of the people who cheerlead for AI taking over everything say that we'll now have infinite time for arts and culture, but as seen in the writers and actors strikes this summer, we can be certain our corporate ghouls - I mean overlords - will outsource that job to machines too.

That's what people thought about almost every new technology. Machines replacing human labour, etc. Hundreds of years later since industrial revolution, we still are at record low unemployment and earning way more after accounting for inflation. People don't stop working. They just do different things. What I am suggesting is a very minimal level of AI. It's not making complex decisions that can be made by humans.

If we were against automation, you and I would have been farming with our hands or hunting for food.

That's a nice theory, but in practice it's quite a bit less elegant than all that. As someone who owns one of these doorbells/camera systems and has fiddled extensively with the sensitivity of the detection settings, it still frequently reports that cars passing by are people at my door, and laundry drying in the wind or the porch swing swinging back and forth constitute motion in our backyard.

If this is what's supposed to convince me that a train will be able to detect a person, I am not convinced.



Yes, and they get it wrong sometimes. Just ask anyone who's actually had to use one how pleasant it is to have a computer autocorrect your steering motion for you.

Get Google's new Nest doorbell. I never had a single instance of wrong detection in 2 years. You could be in for a surprise!

With cars also, each car will have different levels of sophistication. If you buy a car with better automation, you will see better results. A train doesn't even have to worry about detecting lanes or turns.

 

[T3G]

The previous history of innovation has never had the end goal of throwing everyone out of work the way the current push of automation is. It is disingenuous to make this comparison.

In the past, technology evolved because the need existed for it. The horse and cart gave way to the steam locomotive. The steam locomotive gave way to diesel. Food production still involves people, the process and machinery though is different. Today's push for automation, with machines doing all the labour human beings did previously, will render everyone, unless they are an engineer, scientist, or otherwise specialized in their craft, out of work. It is very very obviously not about propelling the human race forward, but about creating more profits for CEOs and shareholders, who won't have to pay for labour, which is the largest part of the costs for many organizations. It is pollyannaish to think that the rulers of today will scramble to provide a UBI or anything of the sort as many of them are in bed with these same corporate ghouls, so many people will be left destitute and struggling. Hooray for progress!

And I stand by my statement that having driverless trains is INSANE. I do not, and nor should anyone else, trust the general public to evacuate themselves out of a dark, dirty tunnel in the event of a fire or derailment. The generally acceptable safety records of contemporary rapid transit systems do not impress me as an argument - they said the Titanic was unsinkable, and it was, until it wasn't. And we don't build systems for best case scenarios - if we did, we wouldn't have emergency services, cars wouldn't have seatbelts, etc.

And it doesn't even have to be in a tunnel, consider the recent derailment of the SRT. If a driver were not present, the passengers on board would have to evacuate themselves right into the trackbed, with the third and fourth rails posing a danger to them, and would have to contact the authorities with information of the situation themselves. The general public is not interested in transit and may not give correct information about their location or what happened.

If you want to have the trains driving themselves to maximize computer based acceleration and braking, fine, whatever. But removing employees from the trains altogether is entirely unacceptable in my book. The SRT arrangement where the train drives itself but the driver attends to it is as far as I would be willing to accept automation. But of course it doesn't matter what I or anyone whose jobs are threatened by automation think, whatever makes the most profits for the most corporations will win out and the rest of us can go fuck ourselves.

 

[Undead]

The solution was creating bullshit corporate jobs for everyone. Automation and AI will just bring more of that. A sort of unspoken pact between Big Biz and Big Gov. Gov greases the wheels for Biz if the latter help keep people off the dole in make work jobs.

 

[NoahB]

I'm sorry, but the idea of driverless trains being scary belongs in the 1970s. Since then, the Skytrain and the dozens (hundreds?) of automated metros built worldwide have proved safe and reliable, especially when using platform screen doors.

Automated trams have been in testing by companies like Seimens since at least 2018 too.


Japan and China have 'driverless' HSR now too.

 

[SashaLemon]

I was writing a list of automated metros to be snarky but ironically it was taking way too long so here is the Wikipieda page instead:

List of driverless train systems - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[T3G]

I'm sorry, but the idea of driverless trains being scary belongs in the 1970s. Since then, the Skytrain and the dozens (hundreds?) of automated metros built worldwide have proved safe and reliable, especially when using platform screen doors.

Automated trams have been in testing by companies like Seimens since at least 2018 too.


Japan and China have 'driverless' HSR now too.

In 1907, SS Kronprinz Wilhelm, a German liner, had rammed an iceberg but still completed her voyage, and Smith said in 1907 that he "could not imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that."[154][j]

 

[afransen]

In 1907, SS Kronprinz Wilhelm, a German liner, had rammed an iceberg but still completed her voyage, and Smith said in 1907 that he "could not imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that."[154][j]

This is just being irrational.

 

[smallspy]

In 1907, SS Kronprinz Wilhelm, a German liner, had rammed an iceberg but still completed her voyage, and Smith said in 1907 that he "could not imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that."[154][j]

So how often are you refilling your whale oil lamps, exactly?

 

[SashaLemon]

In 1907, SS Kronprinz Wilhelm, a German liner, had rammed an iceberg but still completed her voyage, and Smith said in 1907 that he "could not imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that."[154][j]

My dad is always complaining that "they don't make stuff like they used to anymore" but he keeps buying cheap crap.

And I can't believe I have to say this but obviously plenty of ocean liners have sunk.

 

[T3G]

This is just being irrational.

Ah, my favourite UrbanToronto line of argument. Someone questions some commonly accepted line of thinking, such as light metro being the unquestionably best tech for the OL, that we need to build expensive subways everywhere, or that automation everywhere is an unquestionable benefit for our civilization, and rather than meaningfully engaging with the discussion, the person is called irrational, behind the times, etc. I certainly don't think there is any shame in being hesitant to unquestionably accept a new technology (or at least there shouldn't be) just because our overlords, who as we all know from careful reading of history are a generous and kind demographic of people who always have our best interests and well being at heart, foisted it upon us and assured us it's safe.

If wanting someone trained in evacuation procedures, emergency evacuations, and who can contact the authorities clearly and accurately on my trains is irrational or paranoid, then wearing seatbelts, locking your house at night, keeping computer backups, looking both ways before crossing the street, wearing hi-vis clothing in the dark, having a first aid kit, wearing a helmet while biking, having Two Factor Authentication, or having emergency contacts must also be irrational and paranoid. I have found in my life that I have not really needed to do any of these things up until this point, but I still do them, because it only takes one misadventure for the decision to do these things to pay off.

I want someone to answer these questions clearly and concisely: if there is no employee on board the train, how does an automated metro conduct an evacuation in the event of a derailment or fire? How does the general public know where to go, or how to avoid debris on the track bed? What about if police or paramedic intervention is required? In a dark tunnel, everything looks the same and no one knows where they are (or even what happened). How does anyone know where they are or how to get help? And no, meaningless platitudes about how the metro systems are safe don't mean a thing. Everything is safe, until it's suddenly not. Of course, the wikipedia article on automatic train operation doesn't mention anything about safety.

So far I have voiced several pressing concerns with automated trains in this thread and I've not had a single one of them refuted, but at least I can rest assured in the knowledge that I am paranoid and behind the times. Stellar debating, I am so much more knowledgeable and in step with the times now