[kettal]

There is a limit to how long a subway can be before it loses it's usefulness.

For example, the subway ride from Richmond Hill centre into downtown will be 1 hour, whereas the GO station in the same spot will do the same thing in half the time.

I'm not explicitly against the subway extension, but if they improved the GO service instead, the same advantages of relieving traffic and parking in Finch will be achieved, and many commuters will have an extra hour added to their day.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

There is a limit to how long a subway can be before it loses it's usefulness.

For example, the subway ride from Richmond Hill centre into downtown will be 1 hour, whereas the GO station in the same spot will do the same thing in half the time.

I'm not explicitly against the subway extension, but if they improved the GO service instead, the same advantages of relieving traffic and parking in Finch will be achieved, and many commuters will have an extra hour added to their day.

GO is a realistic option for people at and north of RHC station, but you're conveniently ignoring the rest of the extension, where GO is not a realistic option.

 

[unimaginative2]

Then what are the other great advantages, I am supposedly ignoring, that a subway will bring but a partially-tunnelled LRT won't?

What, pray tell, is the glorious advantage of a tunnelled LRT over a subway? Is it the unnecessary transfer? Is it the LRT vehicles that cost three times as much as subway cars for equivalent capacity? Is it the general awesomeness of light rail?

LRT absolutely has its place, but not tacked on at an arbitrary point to the end of a crowded subway line. Even Steve Munro supports extending the Yonge Subway.

I wish people would drop, once and for all, the idea that an entire subway line must move 34,000 people per hour or else it is "under capacity" and useless. It should be blindingly obvious to all that if a line is at its theoretical capacity at its terminal station, it is completely useless to everyone at intermediate points. A subway line at 25-30% of capacity at its terminal station is extremely well-used. There are very, very few routes in the world that could boast that kind of figure.

There is a limit to how long a subway can be before it loses it's usefulness.

Absolutely. That's what I've been saying for Mississauga.

For example, the subway ride from Richmond Hill centre into downtown will be 1 hour, whereas the GO station in the same spot will do the same thing in half the time.

Finch to King takes 29 minutes. I can't fathom how an extra 6 km would double that. Because of its circuitous route, the Bala Sub isn't much quicker.

I'm not explicitly against the subway extension, but if they improved the GO service instead, the same advantages of relieving traffic and parking in Finch will be achieved, and many commuters will have an extra hour added to their day.

Absolutely. Regional rail should be improved as well. That doesn't negate the tremendous value of this subway extension.

 

[kettal]

What, pray tell, is the glorious advantage of a tunnelled LRT over a subway? Is it the unnecessary transfer? Is it the LRT vehicles that cost three times as much as subway cars for equivalent capacity? Is it the general awesomeness of light rail?

LRT absolutely has its place, but not tacked on at an arbitrary point to the end of a crowded subway line. Even Steve Munro supports extending the Yonge Subway.

I wish people would drop, once and for all, the idea that an entire subway line must move 34,000 people per hour or else it is "under capacity" and useless. It should be blindingly obvious to all that if a line is at its theoretical capacity at its terminal station, it is completely useless to everyone at intermediate points. A subway line at 25-30% of capacity at its terminal station is extremely well-used. There are very, very few routes in the world that could boast that kind of figure.

The reason for light rail, is because the subway has to end somewhere. There has to be a transfer somewhere. Will York region benefit to have that transfer in the centre of their region or have a transfer-less travel through York, so it can be a centralized self-sustaining transit system (rather than just a feeder network for southbound TTC)

What you saying, is essentially that the subway should go up to Newmarket because otherwise there would be a.... transfer!!!!

 

[unimaginative2]

What I'm saying is that the transfer should happen at a rational point. Highway 7 is the main east-west spine of York Region Transit, while Highway 407 will be GO Transit's main route. That's why it makes perfect sense to have the extend the main north-south route to connect with them both, rather than end arbitrarily at Steeles and force people to transfer to a completely separate LRT to ride a few stops up to Highway 7. Of course York Region will benefit from having the main transit hub in the centre of the region.

 

[xtremesniper]

I can't imagine today how much easier it will be to drive on that stretch once the subway is open and people aren't jockeying around the 10 bus lines and the cars now convening at Finch.

Oh man, just 10 bus lines? That's like just from YRT alone. Then you have the two Viva routes, GO, and the (I think) almost 15 from the TTC.

It's a hectic hub.

 

[unimaginative2]

Here's the main issue with using trains of LRVs on high-capacity routes (I could have posted this in any of the relevant threads). A single new TTC LRV has 63 seats and costs $6 million. The new Toronto Rocket trains have a slightly higher capacity per car than an LRV, but let's assume that they're broadly equivalent. An entire 6-car subway train costs $12 million. A single car, therefore, has a cost of $2 million. Therefore, for equivalent capacity, an LRV train is three times the cost. On a long route, that cost differential would be enormous. Light rail makes perfect sense with single vehicles on medium-capacity routes, but once you start talking about long trains, it becomes very cost-ineffective.

 

[nfitz]

Finch to King takes 29 minutes. I can't fathom how an extra 6 km would double that.

27 minutes according to the TTC. Finch to Richmond Hill is the same distance and same number of stations as Bloor to Lawrence. So that should add 11 minutes, making King to Richmond Hill 38 minutes; even less once they get ATC in place, with the faster trains. King to Don Mills is 35 minutes, including a change in trains; seems quite comparable to me.

Where does an hour come from? That number makes no sense.

 

[kettal]

Sorry, I made a measuring mistake.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Here's the main issue with using trains of LRVs on high-capacity routes (I could have posted this in any of the relevant threads). A single new TTC LRV has 63 seats and costs $6 million. The new Toronto Rocket trains have a slightly higher capacity per car than an LRV, but let's assume that they're broadly equivalent. An entire 6-car subway train costs $12 million. A single car, therefore, has a cost of $2 million. Therefore, for equivalent capacity, an LRV train is three times the cost. On a long route, that cost differential would be enormous. Light rail makes perfect sense with single vehicles on medium-capacity routes, but once you start talking about long trains, it becomes very cost-ineffective.

*AHEM* Eglinton *AHEM*

But I'd like to point out that the density on Yonge will become high enough at least through Richmond Hill for a Subway. It's definitely dense enough for LRT, and I'm giving it 10 or 15 years before it'll be good for subway.

Regardless, taking the GO train downtown would reduce travel time by a lot. Unfortunately, once a subway's there up to Highway 7, I doubt a lot of people will be using the train until it becomes an express route.

 

[Chuck]

So King to Langstaff subway might be 38 minutes. For the purpose of comparison, Union to Langstaff GO is 35-37 minutes depending on which train you take. GO will never be faster if you are heading to the CBD, let alone to a downtown university.

I still believe that the best market for the Richmond Hill line is eastern North York and western Scarborough, certainly not Yonge corridor and less so York Region. Oriole GO to Union is 23-24 minutes, while Leslie Station to King might be 34 minutes based on a previous response. I'd love to see 10 minute LRT frequency on the Richmond Hill line, with 5 minute rush hour service between Union and Sheppard.

 

[Anth]

You're absolutely right. A downtown, commuter-centric focus is wrong for Mississauga. That doesn't mean that regional rail is an inappropriate mode. The reason that the Milton line is perfect for rapid transit is that it serves so much of Mississauga, connects with a route to Downtown Brampton, and connects with the subway not only at Kipling but also Dundas West. Think of it as a New York express-style subway line. West of Kipling, the route is local, but east of Kipling it runs express with only three stops at Kipling, Dundas West and Union. The fact that the non-stop section isn't immediately adjacent to the existing Bloor subway is irrelevant.

Regional rail is totally appropriate and I do support it for Milton as a way to hit most of the important centres across Mississauga with high frequency, but it wouldn't be great as the whole rapid transit solution east of Hurontario since the tracks intersect points of interest (West Mall, Dixie) at really awkward spots with respect to Sherway and Dundas, making it hard to transfer to local service. Additionally, there are only so many stops you can put on a crosstown line. I was thinking more along the lines of regional rail Milton plus a Bloor extension instead of the eastern portion of the Dundas LRT, since then Dundas could get its rapid local service, regional rail connectivity at key points, and still directly serve Sherway with one seamless route. In this case it would probably make more sense to have a Hurontario-Dundas terminus instead of taking the subway all the way up to SQ1 and such an extension would be much more reasonable than worrying about how to curve up to poorly-located MCC.

We could simply extend Bloor to Sherway and keep the Dundas LRT as is with a transfer at Kipling, but it seems so much messier with a Sherway spur and all the western transfer points at strange middle-of-nowhere locations (hydro field Kipling, industrial Dixie station south of Dundas, lonely Cooksville station north of Dundas).

Why would it be so difficult to regional railize the Milton Line? It would likely cost less than the subway extension from Kipling to Square One alone (especially with the TTC's inflated costs) and would serve far more of the city with much faster rides.

It's not that it would be difficult, but current plans have Milton line electrification at least 25 years into the future and there hasn't been any indication so far of adding or changing stops. Even assuming it's built as regional rail in a shorter time frame, we'd still have to address the issues I brought up above. And it's really unfortunate that we have to take TTC cost inflation into account, but hopefully that'll change as the province reins in agencies across the region.

Sorry, back to the Yonge extension!

 

[BMO]

So King to Langstaff subway might be 38 minutes. For the purpose of comparison, Union to Langstaff GO is 35-37 minutes depending on which train you take. GO will never be faster if you are heading to the CBD, let alone to a downtown university.

I still believe that the best market for the Richmond Hill line is eastern North York and western Scarborough, certainly not Yonge corridor and less so York Region. Oriole GO to Union is 23-24 minutes, while Leslie Station to King might be 34 minutes based on a previous response. I'd love to see 10 minute LRT frequency on the Richmond Hill line, with 5 minute rush hour service between Union and Sheppard.

What I think the Richmond Hill GO line would be perfect for would be, if it was extended further north to Keswick/Georgina or Sutton, it would be perfect to stop in Richmond Hill, and then just continue down to Toronto, it would provide a fast connection to Richmond Hill, and Toronto just for connection purposes, I DON"T think it would be good for getting to destinaitons in between, think of it almost as like a VIA train but on a smaller scale between smaller towns instead of big city to big city. BTW I think the subway could easily go all the way up to Elgin mills, but then that brings up the question of, when do you draw the line?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The reason for light rail, is because the subway has to end somewhere. There has to be a transfer somewhere.

Don't you realize that this line of reasoning makes absolutely no sense? Where should the LRT end? Where should the bus after the LRT end? You're saying the subway should not be extended because the subway can be extended. Should I not go for a walk around the block this afternoon because I'm capable of walking 20 miles?

BTW I think the subway could easily go all the way up to Elgin mills, but then that brings up the question of, when do you draw the line?

When do you draw the line? Wherever you want...wherever it makes sense. Finch makes no sense as a terminus (the hydro corridor makes a good parking lot but parking can be added anywhere). Steeles makes a fraction of sense mostly due to the fare boundary (which may not be there forever). Clark would make some sense if the E/W rail corridor there had passenger service. The next place north of Finch that makes a lot of sense is Hwy 7, which is why the extension - which is needed for a subjective distance north of Finch - is stopping there.

 

[urbandreamer]

Why not extend the Yonge line to Buffalo, with a stop at Centre Island, NOTL and NF?