There doesn't seem to be any room for two subway tracks and a third track on the Bala sub under the 407 bridge.

The clearance underneath the 407 bridge is almost 250 feet. There is tonnes of room for a subway, and more tracks than CN would know what to do with.

Dan
 
Mmm, I think someone else posted this map before but CN's ROW is definitely not 250 ft.
A quick measurement shows it as less than 35m and when you keep in mind that structures - like buildings and highway abutments - have proximity requirements (usually 30m, I believe, from the tracks) I suspect that there is not room for "more tracks than CN would know what to do with."

Is there room for one more, if it's needed? Maybe...
1728783327468.png
 
Mmm, I think someone else posted this map before but CN's ROW is definitely not 250 ft.
A quick measurement shows it as less than 35m and when you keep in mind that structures - like buildings and highway abutments - have proximity requirements (usually 30m, I believe, from the tracks) I suspect that there is not room for "more tracks than CN would know what to do with."

Is there room for one more, if it's needed? Maybe...
View attachment 603877
You're right, the ROW is not 250 feet.

But the clearance from abutment to abutment of the overpasses is what is being considered here, and that distance is far greater than the ROW's width.

In fact, it looks as if the subway could be built entirely outside of CN's ROW there.

Dan
 
This is a patronage and real estate project at this point, with a subway line attached. @ARG1 that's reason enough to argue against the entire line

At least with the crosstown, it's 100 percent incompetence.
 
This is a patronage and real estate project at this point, with a subway line attached. @ARG1 that's reason enough to argue against the entire line

At least with the crosstown, it's 100 percent incompetence.

Again, urban growth center since 2006.
Original subway plan was 2007 and all the realignment did was move the penultimate station from the edge to the centre. It's not surprising, I don't think, that landowners in a UGC (who already had most lot the site) consolidated their holdings in the decade+ after the subway EA was approved.

If we're going to call every transit project that results in land assembly and. Intensification a "patronage" project ", I'm not sure what we're actually going to build.

(similarly we could talk about how the TOC program is being executed but it exists to leverage real estate development along transit lines so we kind of want to see real estate projects attached to every subway (and GO and LRT and BRT) line, actually..

But the clearance from abutment to abutment of the overpasses is what is being considered here, and that distance is far greater than the ROW's width.
OK. But to rephrase my point /question

Doesn't any new track have to be at least 30m or something from the abutments? Doesn't that obviously reduce the potential width by a lot?
 
Last edited:
Again, urban growth center since 2006.
Original subway plan was 2007 and all the realignment did was move the penultimate station from the edge to the centre. It's not surprising, I don't think, that landowners in a UGC (who already had most lot the site) consolidated their holdings in the decade+ after the subway EA was approved.

If we're going to call every transit project that results in land assembly and. Intensification a "patronage" project ", I'm not sure what we're actually going to build.

(similarly we could talk about how the TOC program is being executed but it exists to leverage real estate development along transit lines so we kind of want to see real estate projects attached to every subway (and GO and LRT and BRT) line, actually..


OK. But to rephrase my point /question

Doesn't any new track have to be at least 30m or something from the abutments? Doesn't that obviously reduce the potential width by a lot?
But it shouldn't have happened. Staying on Yonge costs less and doesn't bring up questions of favours for developers. It should be that simple. That's just one of the complaints.
 
But it shouldn't have happened. Staying on Yonge costs less and doesn't bring up questions of favours for developers. It should be that simple. That's just one of the complaints.

But..
No. It doesn't cost less.
On Yonge is in a tunnel with an underground station. Two of em.

This is above grade, including the station. Two of em.

It's why they shifted the alignment.

It's spelled out in the Star article and IBC that they picked the cheapest option (sacrificing some ridership and efficiency)

Because it's cheaper.
What makes you think it isn't?
 
OK. But to rephrase my point /question

Doesn't any new track have to be at least 30m or something from the abutments? Doesn't that obviously reduce the potential width by a lot?
Before I answer that......think about how that would look, exactly. And then look or think about any new grade separation and consider how much - or little - space there is between the tracks and the structure.

So no, track does not need to be 30m from any structure. What needs to happen is that any structure within 30m needs to be reinforced against any potential collision by a train, and that reinforcement can take many different forms.

Dan
 
So no, track does not need to be 30m from any structure. What needs to happen is that any structure within 30m needs to be reinforced against any potential collision by a train, and that reinforcement can take many different forms.

OK, fair. It's not my area of expertise.
I'm not sure how the new grade of the TOC development impacts this or how CN /MTO would figure out costs of reinforments. But it's not impossible, is the main answer, I guess.
 
OK, fair. It's not my area of expertise.
I'm not sure how the new grade of the TOC development impacts this or how CN /MTO would figure out costs of reinforments. But it's not impossible, is the main answer, I guess.
If you want some further reading, I know of one rail-adjacent mixed use application that has a “Railway Safety and Development Viability Assessment” in its supporting documentation.

In the AIC, look up the application for 125R Mill St. It’s just east of Cherry St on the north perimeter of the USRC. Maybe worth a skim if you’re interested.
 
Thanks. I've seen a few developments with this issue and know it can be serious. I just wonder how much leeway CN would have here given the provincial infrastructure at issue, as well as the development which is subject to a deal between the developer and province.

I suspect there are already built in measures related to the mitigation measures and especially the plan to deck over the corridor. Lots of moving pieces...
 
Thanks. I've seen a few developments with this issue and know it can be serious. I just wonder how much leeway CN would have here given the provincial infrastructure at issue, as well as the development which is subject to a deal between the developer and province.

I suspect there are already built in measures related to the mitigation measures and especially the plan to deck over the corridor. Lots of moving pieces...
That's just it, for a greenfield installation it's easy because you can build in the protections from the outset.

For something like a bridge - which is already quite solid - the mitigation measures may be as simple as building wing walls adjacent to the abutments.

Dan
 
I couldn't help but notice many railway bridges don't have any kind of fencing, presumably because if a train went off the track far enough to fall off the bridge, a fence wouldn't stop it.
Considering the weight and forces involved, a fence would not do anything. A wall would have to be quite robust - and thus, quite heavy - in order to do anything, and so would come with its own set of drawbacks.

That's why most protections on bridges are limited to things like guard rails and limiting the amount of special trackwork around the structures.

Dan
 

Back
Top