afransen said:
Agreed, this thread is about the specific extension on Yonge, as a project.

That said, it feels like Toronto should be doing more thinking about where future rapid transit lines should go. It's odd that there are only furtive dotted lines added for Sheppard East, etc.. To me, there should be a roadmap of what we think the next round of lines after Yonge North, Line 5, OL, and Scarborough Line 2 would look like. Even if they are 40 years away, we should be planning with them in mind.
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There's OL north and Sheppard extensions after those projects. After that we would finally have completed our wish list from decades/century ago.
 
If they extend the subways or rapid transit lines any further north into York Region or west into Peel Region or east into Durham Region, they should be annexed by the City of Toronto.
 
I have to ask if there is some corruption involved here... If the province wants to be in the planning game, they should go ahead and do it. Asking cities to plan and then ignoring what they come up with and substituting something with no outside scrutiny or input is undemocratic. Where is the plan to serve these residents with amenities?

2400 ppjph is 240,000/ sqkm. That is absurdly dense. Is that really necessary? This is denser than the densest slums/neighbourhoods in Bangladesh.
 
afransen said:
I have to ask if there is some corruption involved here... If the province wants to be in the planning game, they should go ahead and do it. Asking cities to plan and then ignoring what they come up with and substituting something with no outside scrutiny or input is undemocratic. Where is the plan to serve these residents with amenities?

2400 ppjph is 240,000/ sqkm. That is absurdly dense. Is that really necessary? This is denser than the densest slums/neighbourhoods in Bangladesh.
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Don't forget the sharp decline in the number of jobs, cramming even more commuters onto Line 1 in the peak direction. But that's Toronto's problem, so who cares, right?

This isn't about building livable communities, this is because their developer donors want to build as high as possible with as many micro-units as possible.
 
I mean, the municipal plan was the exact same thing with 30-40 storey towers chock full of micro studios. None of these intensification plans are viable in the grand scheme of things as long as both levels of government and political parties of all stripes leave the yellowbelt untouched.
 
Allandale25 said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1514760158123077639
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I'd assume the Markham MZO was issued too but, actually, I went to the Planning Act website (which is where this screenshot appears to be from) and don't see either. That's a bit peculiar - do others see it?

The Provincial government is also elected so it's debatable whether it's really "undemocratic" but I agree it's, at the very least, annoying for a municipality to undertake the whole process of planning a community and then have the Province step in. I would say, in fairness, you could argue they have more of a right to do an MZO where they are. making a significant infrastructure investment, like a subway, than any old piece of land. But clearly there hasn't been a fulsome process here and if they dropped the MZO on Thursday before a long weekend... not a great look.
 
The province could have directed the city to develop a plan with the target densities indicated, with the threat of an MZO if they don't play ball. Now the city has no influence over a massive no community and there is no oversight as to the plan to serve these new residents. Where is the accountability on the planning rationale?

I'm pro-density, but this is a bit much. I can get behind it if there is the kind of care about the urban design as you see in the Christie/2150 Lake Shore plan. This is even denser! I feel bad for future residents of this area.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Maybe this thread should be changed to the Line 1 Subway Extensions (plural)? See link for York's Transportation Master Plan.

From link.

View attachment 392872

They're thinking about extending Line 1's Yonge Street leg up to Major Mackenzie Drive & Yonge Street, and Line 1's Jane Street leg up to Major Mackenzie Drive & Canada's Wonderland.by 2051. Includes GO Trains extensions.
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They need a Markham leg, connecting the Ontario Line to Highway 7 around Woodbine or Warden
 
I'm pro-density and development in general but a pure residential development like this is absurd ...No jobs no schools no grocery no commercials...Richmond hill will look more and more like a sleeping city.
 
The province is losing the democratic support for this extension...First thornhill now Richmond hill ...Nice job..
 
When it opens hopefully they'll incorporate some convenient pay system crossing the boundaries, certainly not have the current setup where it's a TTC fare at the 905 stations.
 
minilude said:
I'm pro-density and development in general but a pure residential development like this is absurd ...No jobs no schools no grocery no commercials...Richmond hill will look more and more like a sleeping city.
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This is hyperbole. There will be jobs and grocery stores and schools. There won't be enough of them to achieve a succesful balance or a "Complete community" (IMHO) and, more to the point, there will be a lot of fewer of them than the existing policies in Markham and Richmond Hill required.

Those are sufficient reasons to criticize it without exaggerating. I too am pro-density and pro-development and anyone following this thread long enough knows that I have repeatedly said that these two communities are big reasons this extension is justified. I was saying that back when most people had never heard of Langstaff Gateway and the density the subway could bring around Highway 7 was always a misunderstood, cruciial justification for the extension. Now, for better or worse, it's a done deal. It's zoned and locked in and there will be massive density there. So I was right - but at what cost?

Like you, I look at the final plans and now I have concerns about what it will all look like 20-30 years from now because the plans I touted as justifying the subway (particularly in Markham) have now been kind of perverted. It will take time to tell how good or bad they actually turn out to be in reality - and there is no question there will be enough human beings to more than justify having subway stations. But in what kind of communities? Will they be designed well enough to prevent all those people from just getting on the subway and clogging it up to go to downtown jobs? Because that was the initial intent. They are, in their apparent final forms, not quite what I was fighting for, which is a shame given the potential at those sites generally and in coordinating subway and land use planning, more specicifically. Well, it's going to be a fun ride, and keep us having stuff to discuss, I guess!

And...
W. K. Lis said:
Only after the City of Toronto annexes Markham.
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Yeah, the City of Toronto literally can't even decide on its own how many people are City Council much less annex territory. It's more likely Doug Ford would announce the new/old City of York now includes Markham, Vaughan, Richmond Hill and what used to be Toronto, further diluting the urban core and the power of its voters. That would at least solve the fare boundary issue...
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
This isn't new and has been brought up before, usually as evidence York Region is up to something nefarious; trying to get even more subways they don't deserve.
As they explain:
The Transportation Master Plan is the long-term vision for York Region’s transportation network, encompassing strategy, initiatives and infrastructure. The plan looks ahead 30 years and considers the Region’s transportation infrastructure needs to support growth and the changing needs of travellers. It supports healthy communities and economic growth by planning for safe, reliable travel and efficient movement of goods.

If you drew up a 30-year plan for yourself it would also probably look different than where you actually end up 30 years from now but that doesn't mean looking ahead, considering what your needs might be etc. is a bad exercise. I think we've all seen many, many transit and transportation plans that did not remotely materialize as planned.

So, I don't think we need to worry much about changing the thread name or otherwise treat this as a probable reality any time in the near future.
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I remember clearly when it speculated YR will want to extend Line 1 both sides you had fits yelling about how YR would never do such a thing because they're planning the highest level of BRT. Then when it was pointed out they do want extensions then it's 'oh well nothing to see here it's not a plan'. So which one is it: they wouldn't plan it, or they're not planning it. Because it looks like they're planning it. 2050 is little different than their 2040.

Heck they requested an extension to Jane/Major Mack only a few years into construction of TYSSE, all the while also planning a BRT line. Along the same route. At the same time!
W. K. Lis said:
Instead of heavy rail extensions, should be light rail extensions. The light rail extensions would mean more stops/stations and a further reach. Medium mixed-use density, not just heavy density, along those light-rail extensions.
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Good luck expecting anything like LRT. Seems they plan for the two extremes: BRT lite or 6-car heavy rail subway.
 
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