[Rainforest]

Eglinton's number clearly reaches 12000 passengers if it was 100% grade separated. The line should be elevated east of Don Mills.

Eglinton reaches 12,000 passengers if it is fully interlined with SRT; that would prompt riders from Scarborough to use Eglinton instead of transferring to Danforth subway.

If Eglinton is 100% grade separated, but still terminates at Kennedy, then the number will be very close to the present design (6,000 - 7,000).

There are two distinct issues here: whether to 100% separate Eglinton, and whether to interline it with SRT.

 

[Markster]

Obviously, it is impossible to separate the two effects (serve the existing Yonge subway riders better with the subway extension, but avoid bringing in new riders until DRL opens).

If only there were a way to do this, with economics, to disincentivise longer trips.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

If only there were a way to do this, with economics, to disincentivise longer trips.

A new fare structure is as necessary as a new funding mechanism.

It's an academic concern for now that Rainforest raises, whether the Yonge extension would overwhelm the system on opening day. I don't think it would, especially if the Spadina line is open, the ATO has gone in and at least some of the improvements TTC wants to do at Bloor have taken place. That really should be enough to fill in a gap of a couple of years until the DRL opens.

I don't dismiss the downstream concerns at all, I just think we've spent so long behind the eight ball that when we have a necessary transit project ready to go, we have to strike while the iron is hot. Planning for the extension got Toronto to move on planning the DRL so hopefully starting construction will have the same effect.

 

[gweed123]

This is an interesting suggestion, assuming that:
1) The Bala sub ROW north of the Don Mills intersection is wide enough for 2 tracks.
2) The residents are OK with the high frequency trains.
3) "The Canadian" no longer needs the Bala sub to get to Union.
4) The cargo connection between the northern part of Bala sub and the CN York sub can be retained; this might require 2 subway tracks + 1 mainline track between the Doncaster diamond and the RHC.

From the ridership distribution standpoint, your scheme would work quite nicely. Both the Yonge line and the extended DRL would have healthy loads, not too low and not too high.

Very good, and valid, points to raise. From a quick Google Earth tour, it looks like north of the CN York Sub it already is double tracked (although you mention they may need to add a general track to keep it open to freight), and south of there there are already some parts of the corridor that are double tracked (just south of Oriole for example). It also looks like the overpasses for the line were all built with a 2nd track in mind, so there wouldn't be any costly overpass/underpass reconfigurations needed, at least from the naked eye. As for the Canadian, perhaps it can find an alternate route. A couple trains a week, IMO, shouldn't have priority over a subway running every 5 mins.

As for the residents, I'm sure the connectivity benefits of having a subway near you will partially cancel out the noise concerns about having a subway near you. Certainly Rosedale doesn't hurt that much from the Yonge open cut.

And yes, I thought about it more as I was trying to fall asleep last night, and it is a rather elegant solution to quite a few problems.

1) The southern portion relieves downtown Yonge and provides Torontonians with an alternate route downtown (the "traditional" DRL function).

2) It solves the 'York Region flood' by diverting riders off the Yonge line completely, instead of just making provisions to divert Torontonians off it further downstream. In essence, it solves the problem before it even becomes a problem. Those York Regioners who really really need to get to Yonge, I would suggest VIVA keep the current Yonge St service in place.

3) It actually makes the Sheppard line useful, because it connects 2 N-S subways. And if Sheppard is extended west, 3. It could have quite a nice niche as the "Uptown Connector" line.

4) This would allow Toronto to unreservedly densify along the Yonge corridor, because by and large the Yonge Subway would only be used by those who are within a close proximity to, or have a destination right along the Yonge corridor.

It's a solution that isn't immediately apparent, because like the Bloor-Danforth extension into Mississauga, it's the old "this subway line is closest to where we need to get a subway to, therefore that one is the logical subway to extend". Sometimes, as is the case with the Eglinton LRT and as is the case with this scenario, the most obvious solution isn't the most effective one.

And historydude2012: Nice, haha. And thank you! It's been an evolution to say the least.

 

[Thernan]

What they really need to to build a second subway line directly beneath the existing one.

 

[nfitz]

However, would the cities be physically sustainable without the adjacent rural areas?

Singapore seems economically sustainable. They buy produce and goods from other countries at market rates.

I'm not saying that we need to change much. I'm simply pointing out the absurdity of xtremesniper's comment that Northern Ontario is paying for our transit.

 

[rbt]

What they really need to to build a second subway line directly beneath the existing one.

Why? 75% of users on the Yonge line get to it by transit. They can be carried to a backbone located somewhere other than Yonge just as easy, possibly even easier.

Building a $30B Yonge express would continue to require spending $400M/year transporting people to it. We can do better.


Putting $10B into GO to build out stations including bus terminals every 3km, with 10 to 15 minute frequencies and free transfers from TTC ($500M/year operating subsidy) within the 416 would give a much better result for a much lower total price. It may even allow shaving a few hundred million off the TTC subsidy since turnover on their buses would be higher (more passengers per route mile means fewer buses for the same number of passengers).

 

[gweed123]

Bit of a nicer map, with the math broken down on there.

 

[drum118]

Why? 75% of users on the Yonge line get to it by transit. They can be carried to a backbone located somewhere other than Yonge just as easy, possibly even easier.

Building a $30B Yonge express would continue to require spending $400M/year transporting people to it. We can do better.


Putting $10B into GO to build out stations including bus terminals every 3km, with 10 to 15 minute frequencies and free transfers from TTC ($500M/year operating subsidy) within the 416 would give a much better result for a much lower total price. It may even allow shaving a few hundred million off the TTC subsidy since turnover on their buses would be higher (more passengers per route mile means fewer buses for the same number of passengers).

You are looking at today needs, not the future.

Once Yonge St gets totally redevelop, Yonge riders will out number the feeder riders at least 3:1 if not more.

Regardless how you cut it, Yonge St will require a 2nd line.

Even when the RHC line sees 10-15 minute service all day and 7 days a week along with the DRL up to Hwy 7, There will be still a higher number of riders heading to the Yonge line as that will be where they want to go to on that line outside the downtown area.

Going to 10-15 minute headway on the GO System, more stations are going to be needed to fill in the missing location between the current station ranging from 1-3 km depending on the location to encourage people to use transit. You also need a totally fare integration between GO and all transit systems including TTC.

Having all new subway lines build as standard gauge as well for double deck trains, you are creating the S-Bahn/REX system

 

[nfitz]

Bit of a nicer map, with the math broken down on there.

Why would you interline Sheppard with University from Downsview Park to York The higher demand on University is from Downsview south, not Downsview and north.

Either interline it with University (a branch of University that comes off just north of Downsview station. Or just run Sheppard to the University line (either interchanging with Sheppard West or Downsview Park) and perhaps continue beyond (if you interchange with Downsview Park, running west to the next station at Jane/Finch.

 

[diminutive]

Once Yonge St gets totally redevelop, Yonge riders will out number the feeder riders at least 3:1 if not more.

No they wont.

First, you're vastly overstating the development occurring along Yonge. Currently planned or anticipated development wouldn't produce anywhere near the kind of ridership spike you're expecting. Long term (~2050), development is a function of zoning anyways.

Second, all evidence suggests transfer riders will continue to outnumber walk-ins for decades. In the Passenger Demand Forecast appendix nftiz posted, for instance, which is assuming development up until 2030, (bus) transfers are (like rbt said) 75% of ridership between Finch n RHC. And of initial passengers, over a third of them are park-n-riders from Finch n Langstaff.

So, yeah, like rbt said, a 'Yonge Express' is a stupid waste of money. Most subway riders in Toronto have to be shuttled to the Yonge subway. If we built rapid transit, literally, anywhere else in the City we could divert riders from Yonge.

Even with the busiest subways on Earth in Japan or France, nobody talks about doubling routes. It's super-expensive and doesn't improve network coverage at all. Yonge is a high ridership line, but it's a far ways from the busiest on Earth and there is no reason to think we need to build a second subway under it.

This idea keeps resurfacing every 10 pages and I've got no idea why. It's a terrible, terrible waste of money.

 

[gweed123]

Why would you interline Sheppard with University from Downsview Park to York The higher demand on University is from Downsview south, not Downsview and north.

Either interline it with University (a branch of University that comes off just north of Downsview station. Or just run Sheppard to the University line (either interchanging with Sheppard West or Downsview Park) and perhaps continue beyond (if you interchange with Downsview Park, running west to the next station at Jane/Finch.

Your suggestion would work as well. I just figure that York U is the biggest trip generator in northwestern Toronto, so it would make sense to have a northern crosstown line end there. But interlining going southbound would also certainly work.

In either case, that's not really the focus of that map. The focus is the alternate of the North Yonge Extension by extending the DRL instead. I just added the other lines for context.

 

[Dan416]

We definitely don't have so many subways in Toronto that we need to consider building a second subway along an existing route. Agreed that it's a horrible waste of money.

 

[diminutive]

We definitely don't have so many subways in Toronto that we need to consider building a second subway along an existing route. Agreed that it's a horrible waste of money.

I honestly think it's NYC envy. I think alot of Torontonians see NYC's four track express-local lines and think 'that's what we need!,' at least somewhat oblivious to the fact that the Yonge line is just as fast.

I've got no other explanation why anyone would look at the TTC and think Yonge, off all places, needs a second subway line. Like, why not a Bathurst-Avenue Road-Bay Street subway? Or Bayview-Mt. Pleasant-Jarvis? Or literally any other vaguely North-South route to downtown? At least that would provide some new coverage.

 

[Solid Snake]

Eglinton reaches 12,000 passengers if it is fully interlined with SRT; that would prompt riders from Scarborough to use Eglinton instead of transferring to Danforth subway.

If Eglinton is 100% grade separated, but still terminates at Kennedy, then the number will be very close to the present design (6,000 - 7,000).

There are two distinct issues here: whether to 100% separate Eglinton, and whether to interline it with SRT.

1-With the Eglinton line 100% grade separated ending at Kennedy, a case could be made to extend it further east to connect it with the Lakeshore East line at the Eglinton GO Station.

2-If the Crosstown gets merged with the SRT and gets it's 12,000 passengers, even if some of them would come from the Bloor Danforth Line, the B-D line could go east to the Eglinton GO Station on the Lakeshore line. The ridership on the Danforth line would go back up.

Both scenarios looks promising