[BMO]

I think anybody looking for some magic "solution" to building subways fast & cheap should be very skeptical. This includes removing bathrooms from stations

I honestly think more stations should have bathrooms. A lot of people take the subway and then have to bus for 20-30 minutes.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I think it's stuck due to the GO RER project. Now, I don't see this line go beyond Steeles anymore

The two stations that will get most of the ridership on the extension will need to be huge to handle the load of passengers that will use them. (Steeles and RHC)

I think we will see it extended to Steeles with a temporary YRT bus terminal, with the next part coming in a decade or so. Bringing it to Steeles let's buses avoid the worst part of traffic on Yonge which is south of Steeles, Yonge moves quite quickly north of it, and the amount of buses north of Steeles drops considerably anyway.

I'm going to rehash what I've probably already said on this thread 20 times except to say that going north of Steeles, even with GO improvements is:

-politically inadvisable (i.e. you piss off one of the biggest, wealthiest, fastest-growing, most progressive suburban municipalities in the province; also, all 3 political parties (even Hudak!) supported the full length during the recent campaign because they know this)

-is contrary to both the Growth Plan and the Big Move and the official plans of the subject municipalities (and the approved EA, fwiw) and plans at RHC that are specifically and explicitly contingent on GO and the subway

-hardly saves any money once you've started digging

-does little or nothing to alleviate traffic north of Steeles ,though I'm happy it gets the buses off yonge in the 416

One thing I will repeat that I've said before is how baffling it is to me, just looking at a map, that anyone would think it makes sense to extend the subway 1/3 of the way to a place that is designated as arguably the biggest growth node in the whole Places to Grow area AND a Metrolinx Anchor Mobility Hub AND an existing transit hub with planned and existing major E/W connections. Honestly, I cannot wrap my head around it. It's only slightly more logical than advocating for an extension to Cummer and, frankly, I'd just as soon leave it at Finch unless it's a short-term, temporary measure with an explicit timeline and funding for the second phase. 10 years AFTER Steeles? Way too long for a line that, if transit planning proceeded as it should have in this region, should have been built 15 years ago.

(Oh, and cheaping out on bathrooms and stuff to get a subway built faster is..........I'll just say, not very ambitious.)

 

[BMO]

I'm going to rehash what I've probably already said on this thread 20 times except to say that going north of Steeles, even with GO improvements is:

-politically inadvisable (i.e. you piss off one of the biggest, wealthiest, fastest-growing, most progressive suburban municipalities in the province; also, all 3 political parties (even Hudak!) supported the full length during the recent campaign because they know this)

-is contrary to both the Growth Plan and the Big Move and the official plans of the subject municipalities (and the approved EA, fwiw) and plans at RHC that are specifically and explicitly contingent on GO and the subway

-hardly saves any money once you've started digging

-does little or nothing to alleviate traffic north of Steeles ,though I'm happy it gets the buses off yonge in the 416

One thing I will repeat that I've said before is how baffling it is to me, just looking at a map, that anyone would think it makes sense to extend the subway 1/3 of the way to a place that is designated as arguably the biggest growth node in the whole Places to Grow area AND a Metrolinx Anchor Mobility Hub AND an existing transit hub with planned and existing major E/W connections. Honestly, I cannot wrap my head around it. It's only slightly more logical than advocating for an extension to Cummer and, frankly, I'd just as soon leave it at Finch unless it's a short-term, temporary measure with an explicit timeline and funding for the second phase. 10 years AFTER Steeles? Way too long for a line that, if transit planning proceeded as it should have in this region, should have been built 15 years ago.

(Oh, and cheaping out on bathrooms and stuff to get a subway built faster is..........I'll just say, not very ambitious.)

I think anyone who suggests ending the line at Steeles is woefully misguided in the need of this link to extend to Highway 7, not just for the immediate ridership, but to unlock the growth plans and requirements set at Highway 7 and Yonge as well as along Yonge in between Steeles and Hwy 7. Not to mention the bigger connection this link will serve in terms of the future 407 transitway, VIVA rapid transit network and GO connection at RHC.

This link is needed, and I think most people believe it is. I think most just want it prioritized lower than other projects. And although i do have a vested interest in the subway going to Hwy 7 I think it is a really important project, more so, for YRT. The subway connections that the YRT routes will be able to make without having to waste time and gas to shuttles people 2 km to Finch (without even being able to make money on this portion) will be a really great opportunity for the agency to boost frequencies to attract riders to take transit (who are traditionally now driving to Finch).

This isn't just a convenience project it's a necessity with all the high densities planned along this section.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It's not whether it should or not, but the fact remains that the extension only has a positive cost benefit ratio for the Steeles extension. Then there is also the fact that we only have $15 billion to work with, once you the DRL and Yonge extension In you have eaten up half of that money, leaving little for other projects. I the context of that money I suspect they will build it to Steeles as they can probably do that without the DRL once you factor in RER. If you include the whole thing, you require the DRL, which means that the cost goes from $1 billion to $7 billion..

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Why are you telling us this? Email the Government of Ontario, their the ones who want to stop at Steeles. We only have 15 billion and there are places outside the GTA that want to improve their transit.

 

[Solid Snake]

I'm going to rehash what I've probably already said on this thread 20 times except to say that going north of Steeles, even with GO improvements is:

-politically inadvisable (i.e. you piss off one of the biggest, wealthiest, fastest-growing, most progressive suburban municipalities in the province; also, all 3 political parties (even Hudak!) supported the full length during the recent campaign because they know this)

-is contrary to both the Growth Plan and the Big Move and the official plans of the subject municipalities (and the approved EA, fwiw) and plans at RHC that are specifically and explicitly contingent on GO and the subway

-hardly saves any money once you've started digging

-does little or nothing to alleviate traffic north of Steeles ,though I'm happy it gets the buses off yonge in the 416

One thing I will repeat that I've said before is how baffling it is to me, just looking at a map, that anyone would think it makes sense to extend the subway 1/3 of the way to a place that is designated as arguably the biggest growth node in the whole Places to Grow area AND a Metrolinx Anchor Mobility Hub AND an existing transit hub with planned and existing major E/W connections. Honestly, I cannot wrap my head around it. It's only slightly more logical than advocating for an extension to Cummer and, frankly, I'd just as soon leave it at Finch unless it's a short-term, temporary measure with an explicit timeline and funding for the second phase. 10 years AFTER Steeles? Way too long for a line that, if transit planning proceeded as it should have in this region, should have been built 15 years ago.

(Oh, and cheaping out on bathrooms and stuff to get a subway built faster is..........I'll just say, not very ambitious.)

There's always LRT from RHC to Steeles if necessary at a fraction of the cost. There's no money left after the electrification of GO.

With the GO electrifying the line and by adding stations within Toronto such as moving Oriole GO Station to Leslie Station on the Sheppard line, why on earth would building stations past Steeles make any sense??? Every 15 minutes you get a fast train that gets you to Leslie Subway Station or straight to Union. We all know that the most expensive part of a subway project is building the stations so yes, it would be cheaper to stop at Steeles.

What's wrong? Can't Richmond Hill residents handle a transfer at Sheppard-Yonge if they must use the Yonge line?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

here we go...

 

[diminutive]

The two stations that will get most of the ridership on the extension will need to be huge to handle the load of passengers that will use them. (Steeles and RHC)

I think we will see it extended to Steeles with a temporary YRT bus terminal, with the next part coming in a decade or so. Bringing it to Steeles let's buses avoid the worst part of traffic on Yonge which is south of Steeles, Yonge moves quite quickly north of it, and the amount of buses north of Steeles drops considerably anyway.

I'd take the opposite path to cut costs; build the line to RHC, but cut most or all of the stations other than Steeles and RHC. Those two stations are probably 80% of the project's ridership, and most of the bus transfers to stations like Cummer could be done at Steeles or Finch (which will have lots of spare bus bay capacity once the Steeles buses are gone).

And no more stupid park and ride stations. It's ridiculous to spend ~200m dollars to build a station to cater to a few drivers.

 

[Solid Snake]

I'd take the opposite path to cut costs; build the line to RHC, but cut most or all of the stations other than Steeles and RHC. Those two stations are probably 80% of the project's ridership, and most of the bus transfers to stations like Cummer could be done at Steeles or Finch (which will have lots of spare bus bay capacity once the Steeles buses are gone).

And no more stupid park and ride stations. It's ridiculous to spend ~200m dollars to build a station to cater to a few drivers.

Still, with GO RER, I still don't see the point to extend the subway to RHC

 

[nfitz]

I honestly think more stations should have bathrooms. A lot of people take the subway and then have to bus for 20-30 minutes.

All stations have bathrooms. It's required by the building code. The code doesn't require most to be accessible to the public though.

I"m confused by:

... going north of Steeles, even with GO improvements is:

-politically inadvisable (i.e. you piss off one of the biggest, wealthiest, fastest-growing, most progressive suburban municipalities in the province; also, all 3 political parties (even Hudak!) supported the full length during the recent campaign because they know this)

Do you meant NOT going north of Steeles? Though some of your other points seem to support not going north of Steeles ... confused ...

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Denton's right - here we go! I'll be succinct since this has all happened before and it will all happen again.
Nfitz - yes, obviously (I suppose) I meant it makes no sense to NOT go north of Steeles and just stop it there.

It's not "The Province of Ontario," that wants to stop it at Steeles; that was a recommendation by the Golden Panel and, FWIW, most of their other suggestions were ignored, at least when the Libs had a minority. The extension TO HIGHWAY 7 remains in the next wave of projects in The Big Move and is the only one of those projects with a complete EA.

Still, with GO RER, I still don't see the point to extend the subway to RHC

I said it but I'll say it again: The development plans at the terminal station are explicitly contingent on the subway AND RER. That's the point. It's pretty black and white, really.

There's always LRT from RHC to Steeles if necessary at a fraction of the cost. There's no money left after the electrification of GO.

With the GO electrifying the line and by adding stations within Toronto such as moving Oriole GO Station to Leslie Station on the Sheppard line, why on earth would building stations past Steeles make any sense??? Every 15 minutes you get a fast train that gets you to Leslie Subway Station or straight to Union. We all know that the most expensive part of a subway project is building the stations so yes, it would be cheaper to stop at Steeles.

What's wrong? Can't Richmond Hill residents handle a transfer at Sheppard-Yonge if they must use the Yonge line?

There aren't enough rolley-eyes smileys for me here:
-You're introducing an unnecessary transfer. So, if I live north of 7 now I have to take the subway to Steeles and then an LRT to 7 and then a BRT. This is entirely contrary (in several ways) to the goals of The Big Move and there is no proposal for an LRT.

-The Sheppard and Oriole stations are not close enough to make that switch viable. So, now if I live north of 7 and I work at, say, yonge and Bloor, I can now either take your RER to Sheppard, walk a mile to the station, take it to Yonge (that's TWO transfers, not one) and then finally start heading south OR I can do the multiple transfers outlined above. Again, contrary to the Big Move, not in anyone's plans.

-Oh, but I see you want to MOVE Oriole. And how are you going to do that? Where are the cars going to park? Where's your new station, precisely?

-Obviously fewer stations are cheaper; duh. But then why even build to Steeles? Just build one at Cummer! Then an LRT can go from there to Steeles and a gondola up to 7 and then BRT. That would be even cheaper! Or scrap the Cummer-Steeles LRT and just do bike sharing, even cheaper! I mean, if we're throwing out the whole idea of a seamless, integrated regional transit system around which we aim to develop transit-oriented communities and all.

I could go and on but you get the idea: makes no sense. Hopefully this won't go round and round again and hopefully they'll build something soon already.

 

[BMO]

All stations have bathrooms. It's required by the building code. The code doesn't require most to be accessible to the public though.

I"m confused by:



Do you meant NOT going north of Steeles? Though some of your other points seem to support not going north of Steeles ... confused ...

you know what I meant

 

[diminutive]

Still, with GO RER, I still don't see the point to extend the subway to RHC

I'm not even sure GO RER on RH would be cheaper than a stripped down subway. Costs are still preliminary, so its hard to be definitive, but some of the high ranges for this GO RER project are over 10 billion. I'm not sure how you'd allocate those costs to RH, but that line would probably need a disproportionate share of upgrades given its route.

I don't think those costs would include new stations, so you'd be left with poor system connectivity, whereas a Yonge extension would connect RHC to the busiest transit corridor in the country, with interchanges to pretty much everything else.

I don't think upgrading RHGO to 'metro' standards would be very cheap. Especially if you got into things like using the Don Branch and adding stations, or the Leslie Spur. I think you'd be looking at two billion minimum. And beyond RHC/Langstaff, the GO line's ridership really dies out. It's not like Gormley Ontario is suddenly going to be some huge transit hub, so it's not like long distance trips would benefit very much.

 

[BMO]

Still, with GO RER, I still don't see the point to extend the subway to RHC

The plan to shift the GO Oriole station closer to Leslie Subway station was indefinitely put on hold to the point where I don't even think anybody has heard about it in years. Not to mention you're essentially forcing people to take the train the Leslie then take Sheppard to Yonge then go north to NYCC and Finch?

I'm a big GO proponent but let's please take a step back and realize it's not a pancea for Toronto congestion and it's use case will primarily be for long-range express trips downtown and not for in-between trips to get to North York Centre or for people taking the Yonge line wanting to go north to Richmond Hill Centre....if you think someone coming from Yonge & Eglinton is going to transfer at Sheppard just to wait for a GO train to go to RHC I'd love to live in your world.

One thing is to justify that the Yonge Subway isn't a priority due to money (if that's your opinion), it's even acceptable to justify that it isn't a priority due to ridership (if that's your opinion), but to justify that it isn't a priority due to GO RER electrification is neither here nor there in terms of what this link will represent and be used for. For that matter what's the point of a lakseshore east LRT when the GO will be electrified and have a stop in the Don Lands?

 

[BMO]

Why are you telling us this? Email the Government of Ontario, their the ones who want to stop at Steeles. We only have 15 billion and there are places outside the GTA that want to improve their transit.

SO if you're saying a completed EA, countless public consultations, the unanimous support of York Regional Council and the municipalities that comprise it and various vocal campaigns by YRT and the Region, as well as a planned prioritization of the project in the BIG Move aren't a clear message to the provincial government?

Maybe York Region should elect some crack addict to really get attention and change what we want every week...