[ehlow]

Okay. Then how about we let the YRT buses turn back at Steeles, since Finch station is not in York Region. Maybe the Mississauga buses should do a U turn at the Etobicoke border, since Islington station is not in Mississauga. Because obviously travel patterns are dictated by an invisible line that is the municipal border.

That's how it already is for 95%! There are exceptions but for the most part transit agencies are responsible for a given region or city and their bus routes end at the border.

Clearly 99% of TTC vehicles never leave Toronto, except for the airport bus, a few others, and the future Vaughan extension.

I don't really have a problem with the subway going north of Steeles, but I do think it's not the primary purpose or mission of the TTC to serve York Region or Mississauga, and that it would probably make sense for that region or city to pay at least bit of the operating costs.

 

[W. K. Lis]

There are TTC riders who walk across the frontiers of Toronto from the 905 to ride the TTC within the borders. Same happened when Metro Toronto had zones, walkers just walked the few blocks to a zone 1 stop or subway station, so they wouldn't have to pay the additional fare.

 

[TOareaFan]

That's how it already is... right? That's reality right now. 95-99% of TTC transit lines end within Toronto's borders. The only exceptions I can think of are the future Vaughan subway, the Eglinton bus goes into Mississauga for a bit, and the airport bus.

Just like Mississauga transit stays in Mississauga and York Region Transit mainly stays in York Region, and NYC's subway stays in NYC, it doesn't go into New Jersey (that's PATH's job).

Doesn't the TTC have a bus route called Malton...and that is not Toronto.

Mississauga Transit crosses into Brampton and Toronto.

I know nothing about York Region transit but I find it hard to believe they don't cross borders into Toronto..and perhaps other places.

Brampton Transit crosses into Mississauga and Toronto and York Region. In fact all three existing Zum lines were designed to end outside the city's borders (quite a distance outside actually).

We really should be encouraging "border" crossing....at the fringes of every municipality is where the connections are made.

 

[ehlow]

Doesn't the TTC have a bus route called Malton...and that is not Toronto.

Mississauga Transit crosses into Brampton and Toronto.

I know nothing about York Region transit but I find it hard to believe they don't cross borders into Toronto..and perhaps other places.

Brampton Transit crosses into Mississauga and Toronto and York Region. In fact all three existing Zum lines were designed to end outside the city's borders (quite a distance outside actually).

We really should be encouraging "border" crossing....at the fringes of every municipality is where the connections are made.

Yeah there are exceptions (which I mentioned), but it still remains true that the vast majority of routes are within the cities or region that the transit agency is responsible for.

 

[TOareaFan]

Yeah there are exceptions (which I mentioned), but it still remains true that the vast majority of routes are within the cities or region that the transit agency is responsible for.

Sure...but I just got the impression you underestimated the number of exceptions.

 

[GenerationW]

provincially!

Don't remember Yonge or (especially) Sheppard being much of an issue there, either.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Don't remember Yonge or (especially) Sheppard being much of an issue there, either.

It will be if Yonge stops at Steeles.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Doesn't the TTC have a bus route called Malton...and that is not Toronto.

Mississauga Transit crosses into Brampton and Toronto.

I know nothing about York Region transit but I find it hard to believe they don't cross borders into Toronto..and perhaps other places.

Brampton Transit crosses into Mississauga and Toronto and York Region. In fact all three existing Zum lines were designed to end outside the city's borders (quite a distance outside actually).

We really should be encouraging "border" crossing....at the fringes of every municipality is where the connections are made.

You don't keep up with the news. The 52 Lawrence West replaced the 58 Malton back on March 30, 2014. See link.

 

[Solid Snake]

If it's so easy, I guess my question is why no one made any effort to do so when the station was designed. But, really, despite the protests above, it remains non-sensical. You're still asking people to start at Yonge, take a train over to Leslie/Sheppard and then take two transfers to get back to Yonge. And that's assuming there is no fare premium, even after integration, for using two systems. Why on earth would any one of the 7 billion human beings on this planet ever do such a thing? You know what they'll do? They'll drive to Finch, same as ever, and you'll have accomplished nothing.

I've seen worse within the city of Toronto. Doesn't mean we have to build subways to correct that. There are BRT and LRT that can correct those problems for a fraction of the cost. Keep in mind that once the lines will be electrified, the GO Trains will be much faster hence saving people even more time. I'm curious to know exactly what's the % of commuter from York region that actually gets of the subway before College in the morning... If the overwhelming majority uses the subway for the downtown core and financial district, then I don't see why the GO RER isn't the best option for the funds that are available.

I guess I'd like to see the Sheppard line properly integrated there but the idea that it in anyway is a replacement for a Yonge extension - we're talking about THREE KM here - is a bridge too far.

Again. Yonge can't take more users. A connection at Leslie on the Sheppard line would be convenient for those who need to go to stations between Sheppard-Yonge and Bloor. I'm still not convinced that the majority or a decent % of York commuters goes to Eglinton above the downtown core which can be easily accommodated by GO RER.

All this fuss over 3 km. People are actually arguing this scenario and that scenario, willing to tear up Yonge for years and get tunnel boring machines and all that, but only go to from Finch to Steeles? Boggles the mind, really.

It's not a matter of distance but BILLIONS of dollars...that we don't have.

-I think fare integration/reconfiguration is inevitable. Metrolinx, the Golden Panel, everyone's made it clear it's a priority and cross-border projects will force their hand.

Once Presto arrives

-TTC gets the full fare AND full parking revenue from the Spadina extension.

And yet TTC and the City of Toronto will still get stuck to pay for the operating costs of a line that will be empty off peak. In Montreal, STM gets all of the subway fares and Laval and Longueuil have to pay for their share of the operating costs for the metro. STM gets provincial subsidies on top of it.

Toronto gets none of those perks and have to either cut bus and streetcar services to Toronto taxpayers or increase the fares to balance their budget. TTC is already unsustainable as it is, how worse will it be to subsidize those subways to York which will be empty off peaks.

Not ONCE do you ever advocate for the operating costs to be equally split between both regions while I said on numerous time if Toronto had the same perks as Montreal, they're be little opposition to subway projects outside the city.

If you think there's no demand along Yonge Street, north of Finch Avenue, I'd like to congratulate you on your savvy real estate knowledge and ask if you'd perhaps be interested in a bridge I have in New York. I'll give you a great deal.

Yeah, if you don't think developing a contiguous rapid transit corridor on Yonge Street is "good planning," -- when the municipality has put in huge density targets and major developers are ready to start selling the day the subway is announced - I'm curious what fits your definition. Anticipating density at Yonge/7 is "poor planning at its best"? For real?

I'm interested in the current demand, not the demand that might happen if a subway gets build. There are parts of this city that already have the demand for a subway and yet, York should get another one. If we had unlimited funds and a steady revenue model for transit, I'd be for it, but we don't. After GO RER gets done, there won't be much left afterwards, not much for the DRL either and yet you still think Yonge should go north before the DRL. Not happening, Torontonians won't have it.

Make the argument all you want. Metroilnx's purported goal is to reduce transfers where possible and the idea of chopping up the Yonge corridor to add more is antithetical.

That's the purpose of GO RER. Why use the TTC subways to accomplish that? At least, the whole province is funding Metrolinx while the TTC is Toronto taxpayers burden. At least, you should advocate to have the province upload the TTC then I'd be on your side.

So, in your New York people from the Bronx take commuter rail over to Queens to get on a subway to go to Manhattan instead of going straight south? In your Paris, major E/W transit nodes are built 2/3KM away from major N/S terminals?

Bronx and Queens ARE part of New York City. The subways does not go to New Jersey. That's why the PATH is there. Paris' operator is RATP, which is responsible for all of Ile-de-France region, big difference here. Funny that you approve of Paris model and yet, you haven't made the same suggestion for the GTA once...

Let's be really honest here - can any one of the people on this board who support stopping the subway at Steeles admit that if the municipal border were at Highway 7 instead of Steeles, that we would not be discussing this at all? I'm going to put on the table that I 100% believe that, whether it's conscious or not, the ONLY argument anyone posits about stopping at Steeles boils down to "that's where Toronto ends." Maybe I'm setting up a straw man - because I think the border is utterly obsolete and has been for some time - but that's what I see, over and over again. Might as well leave it at Finch in that case, I say.

Like it or not, TTC stands for Toronto Transit Commission. You can't honestly expect them to advocate for transit outside their jurisdiction. Their job is to provide service to Torontonians, which might shock you, are the ones paying for TTC. You're complaining about the wrong thing. The right thing to do for you is to write to you MPP and Metrolinx and advocate for them to upload the TTC. THEN and only THEN, the concept of borders won't make sense anymore. Until then, what do you want me to tell you, it's just the way it is for now

 

[BMO]

This is actually a great example. The Bronx & Queens is in New York City, so they have NYC subways & buses serving them.

New Jersey is right beside New York but isn't part of New York, so to get to NYC you have to take PATH and then transfer to the NYC subway.

People from Long Island outside NYC take commuter rail into NYC and transfer as well.

York Region is not part of Toronto. Sorry... it's part of the GTA, but not the City of Toronto, that's just reality.

Hopefully I'm not too late to chime in on this... The New York City example has a natural barrier that separates NJ and NYC. In Toronto there is an arbitrary sign that says you are in York Region on the north side of Steeles and in Toronto on the South. You really can't compare Toronto and New York in the same way. Same goes for Montreal and Laval where the natural river barrier creates both a social and physical barrier. Over here there really isn't a social or physical barrier, it's a political one.

 

[Solid Snake]

Hopefully I'm not too late to chime in on this... The New York City example has a natural barrier that separates NJ and NYC. In Toronto there is an arbitrary sign that says you are in York Region on the north side of Steeles and in Toronto on the South. You really can't compare Toronto and New York in the same way. Same goes for Montreal and Laval where the natural river barrier creates both a social and physical barrier. Over here there really isn't a social or physical barrier, it's a political one.

Despite the Barrier, it's Jersey that comes to Manhattan through the PATH train.

Montreal gets a sweeter deal to operate subways to both Longueuil and Laval. Even then, Montreal and the STM was upset that the blue line wasn't extend east instead to Anjou. The province forced the extension to Laval but Montreal's mayor force Laval to pay for their share of operating costs.

Toronto isn't even close to that. I really don't get what's so hard to understand about the TTC and City of Toronto who represent the taxpayers in this city not being interested into spending to operate transit outside of their jurisdiction. Unless the Metrolinx upload the TTC or TTC gets the same deal as Montreal, nothing will change.

 

[BMO]

Despite the Barrier, it's Jersey that comes to Manhattan through the PATH train.

Montreal gets a sweeter deal to operate subways to both Longueuil and Laval. Even then, Montreal and the STM was upset that the blue line wasn't extend east instead to Anjou. The province forced the extension to Laval but Montreal's mayor force Laval to pay for their share of operating costs.

Toronto isn't even close to that. I really don't get what's so hard to understand about the TTC and City of Toronto who represent the taxpayers in this city not being interested into spending to operate transit outside of their jurisdiction. Unless the Metrolinx upload the TTC or TTC gets the same deal as Montreal, nothing will change.

People from the Regions pay to use the TTC, which goes a long way to paying for the service so that Toronto residents could use it. Some would even argue large chunks of Etobicoke, Scarborough and North York wouldn't be able to justify transit service without these people taking the TTC, ofcourse the TTC would be mandated to serving them because those people pay Toronto taxes and are within Toronto, and as such it would be the people of Toronto who would end up paying higher property taxes (has the lowest in the region) and higher fares just to cover the costs of these areas.

So it's not just Toronto who pays for the system, even though your property taxes go towards it, it could still be a lot higher. The enemy isn't people actually using the system, it's the entire social economic dilemma we are faced with now where people live too far from work, but can't actually live close to work because property values are too high. I don't know a single person who enjoys being stuck in traffic for 1.5 hrs every day. And I don't think anyone should begrudge anyone because they're just trying to get somewhere. We're all in this together. Whether you go north to York Region or someone goes south to Toronto.

And while I acknowledge there are finite resources, I don't think the "TTC is for Toronto" argument is necessarily the right one to have right now. Especially at a time where more coordination between the city and the rest of the region is needed.

 

[ehlow]

Hopefully I'm not too late to chime in on this... The New York City example has a natural barrier that separates NJ and NYC. In Toronto there is an arbitrary sign that says you are in York Region on the north side of Steeles and in Toronto on the South. You really can't compare Toronto and New York in the same way. Same goes for Montreal and Laval where the natural river barrier creates both a social and physical barrier. Over here there really isn't a social or physical barrier, it's a political one.

The river isn't really a barrier, there's the east river between Brooklyn/Queens & Manhattan too.

But if you want an example without a river: the NYC subway goes into Brooklyn/Queens, but not Long Island outside NYC.

In fact up at the Bronx border (which is also just a line or sign), the subway stops right at the border. The NYC subway is fully within NYC. That's an easily verifiable fact using google maps.

People from the Regions pay to use the TTC, which goes a long way to paying for the service so that Toronto residents could use it. Some would even argue large chunks of Etobicoke, Scarborough and North York wouldn't be able to justify transit service without these people taking the TTC, ofcourse the TTC would be mandated to serving them because those people pay Toronto taxes and are within Toronto, and as such it would be the people of Toronto who would end up paying higher property taxes (has the lowest in the region) and higher fares just to cover the costs of these areas.

So it's not just Toronto who pays for the system, even though your property taxes go towards it, it could still be a lot higher. The enemy isn't people actually using the system, it's the entire social economic dilemma we are faced with now where people live too far from work, but can't actually live close to work because property values are too high. I don't know a single person who enjoys being stuck in traffic for 1.5 hrs every day. And I don't think anyone should begrudge anyone because they're just trying to get somewhere. We're all in this together. Whether you go north to York Region or someone goes south to Toronto.

And while I acknowledge there are finite resources, I don't think the "TTC is for Toronto" argument is necessarily the right one to have right now. Especially at a time where more coordination between the city and the rest of the region is needed.

People from the regions use the TTC, but the TTC loses money per rider in order to service the ridership, which is paid by subsidy by Toronto property tax alone.

 

[BMO]

People from the regions use the TTC, but the TTC loses money per rider in order to service the ridership, which is paid by subsidy by Toronto property tax alone.

which are the lowest property taxes in a region of ~8M inhabitants who work at companies in Toronto as well, who's companies pay taxes to help Toronto keep the taxes low. And some would even argue Toronto gets way more hand-me-downs from the rest of the province so I really wouldn't venture down this road very far.

 

[BMO]

The river isn't really a barrier, there's the east river between Brooklyn/Queens & Manhattan too.

But if you want an example without a river: the NYC subway goes into Brooklyn/Queens, but not Long Island outside NYC.

In fact up at the Bronx border (which is also just a line or sign), the subway stops right at the border. The NYC subway is fully within NYC. That's an easily verifiable fact using google maps.

It's much harder to deny transit to people when they can physically see that barrier, when it's just an arbitrary sign on a road that looks exactly the same on both sides is NOT the same thing. And I believe Brooklyn and Queens are actually part of New York City proper. New Jersey is...well...New Jersey.