[sixrings]

which are the lowest property taxes in a region of ~8M inhabitants who work at companies in Toronto as well, who's companies pay taxes to help Toronto keep the taxes low.

Toronto taxes might be lower but for 500k in Toronto you get a semi or a townhouse. So essentially we might be paying lower taxes but because of the crazy property values they are still high. Second it takes a lot less infrastructure to service medium to higher densities. Part of the problem with 905 is that a lot of it is very suburban with the majority being detached 2 car garage houses. You have to run a lot more pipes and wire to service streets that spread out. Another point is that because 905 is relatively new there is constantly a need to build more and more schools and hospitals. Toronto for the most part is closing schools if anything.

 

[ehlow]

It's much harder to deny transit to people when they can physically see that barrier, when it's just an arbitrary sign on a road that looks exactly the same on both sides is NOT the same thing. And I believe Brooklyn and Queens are actually part of New York City proper. New Jersey is...well...New Jersey.

That's my point though.. the other borders of NYC like the one to Long Island and the one between Bronx and upstate NY are signs on a road that look the same on both sides. Yet the subway still stops at the border.

 

[BMO]

Toronto taxes might be lower but for 500k in Toronto you get a semi or a townhouse. So essentially we might be paying lower taxes but because of the crazy property values they are still high. Second it takes a lot less infrastructure to service medium to higher densities. Part of the problem with 905 is that a lot of it is very suburban with the majority being detached 2 car garage houses. You have to run a lot more pipes and wire to service streets that spread out. Another point is that because 905 is relatively new there is constantly a need to build more and more schools and hospitals. Toronto for the most part is closing schools if anything.

I acknowledge there are market realities that do contribute to this and it wasn't really something I wanted to centre the discussion around (obviously it's a lot more complicated than how I portrayed it), I just can't believe some people think they alone actually pay for the TTC and that money doesn't come from elsewhere. It's like the past 23 years of my life my money has been going into a blackhole that hasn't contributed at all to the TTC's revenues just because I'm from outside of Toronto.

 

[ehlow]

It's much harder to deny transit to people when they can physically see that barrier, when it's just an arbitrary sign on a road that looks exactly the same on both sides is NOT the same thing. And I believe Brooklyn and Queens are actually part of New York City proper. New Jersey is...well...New Jersey.

Firstly "deny transit to" seems a bit extreme to me. York Region shouldn't feel entitled to a Toronto subway since it isn't part of Toronto. If they do get it I feel they should pay some operating costs.

Secondly I get that you think the border is arbitrary, but York Region & Toronto pay different taxes, have different governments, police, transit agencies etc etc. York Region is not part of Toronto just like Long Island isn't part of NYC. It's a completely different city.

 

[Solid Snake]

People from the Regions pay to use the TTC, which goes a long way to paying for the service so that Toronto residents could use it. Some would even argue large chunks of Etobicoke, Scarborough and North York wouldn't be able to justify transit service without these people taking the TTC, ofcourse the TTC would be mandated to serving them because those people pay Toronto taxes and are within Toronto, and as such it would be the people of Toronto who would end up paying higher property taxes (has the lowest in the region) and higher fares just to cover the costs of these areas.

So it's not just Toronto who pays for the system, even though your property taxes go towards it, it could still be a lot higher. The enemy isn't people actually using the system, it's the entire social economic dilemma we are faced with now where people live too far from work, but can't actually live close to work because property values are too high. I don't know a single person who enjoys being stuck in traffic for 1.5 hrs every day. And I don't think anyone should begrudge anyone because they're just trying to get somewhere. We're all in this together. Whether you go north to York Region or someone goes south to Toronto.

And while I acknowledge there are finite resources, I don't think the "TTC is for Toronto" argument is necessarily the right one to have right now. Especially at a time where more coordination between the city and the rest of the region is needed.

People from Jersey massively pay fares to use NYC Subways. Does it means the trains should cross the river to service Jersey without Jersey paying their share of the operating costs??? Montreal at least did it by finding a compromise between the province and its neighbours by having them pay for their shares of operating costs.

All I've said is that Toronto demand the same deal and yet, not you or TJ agrees. If you think fares alone make the TTC sustainable then you need to show me those numbers since the service cut backs and higher fare & Metropass prices tells me otherwise. There's a reality here and it's the fact that you have people like TJ who wants the service but won't pay their share of the operating costs or you're just being silent on that point.

Do I sound like someone who's saying no forever? no. All I'm saying there's a matter of available funds, transit priorities and governance structure which you and TJ refuse to acknowledge. Like it or not, it's not the TTC's mandate to improve transit beyond it's jurisdiction when it can't even provide an excellent service within it's own jurisdiction.

You want more coordination between cities on transit? Email Metrolinx and your MPP and have them transform Metrolinx into RATP or Transport for London. That's the governance model you're looking for and that would achieve exactly what you want which would eliminate most of the turf wars and political agendas were witnessing. Until then, all I'm saying is that in the current governance structure, what you're asking for will never happen.

 

[ehlow]

I acknowledge there are market realities that do contribute to this and it wasn't really something I wanted to centre the discussion around (obviously it's a lot more complicated than how I portrayed it), I just can't believe some people think they alone actually pay for the TTC and that money doesn't come from elsewhere. It's like the past 23 years of my life my money has been going into a blackhole that hasn't contributed at all to the TTC's revenues just because I'm from outside of Toronto.

Am I wrong to say that the TTC's operating cost is paid 100% by the City of Toronto government?

 

[BMO]

That's my point though.. the other borders of NYC like the one to Long Island and the one between Bronx and upstate NY are signs on a road that look the same on both sides. Yet the subway still stops at the border.

This is a bit disingenuous as there are plenty of places the subway extends outside of the city.

 

[BMO]

Am I wrong to say that the TTC's operating cost is paid 100% by the City of Toronto government?

Yes, that's what I've been saying the past few comments The city doesn't pay 100% of the costs.

 

[ehlow]

This is a bit disingenuous as there are plenty of places the subway extends outside of the city.

??? Where? Unless you're talking about the PATH train? I'm talking about the NYC subway.

 

[ehlow]

Solid Snake I often disagree with you but I strongly agree with you that we should be focusing on current needs rather than theoretical future needs.

There are huge amounts of Toronto with very high density that require higher order transit. I prefer we serve existing neighbourhoods before theoretical future ones.

 

[sixrings]

Secondly I get that you think the border is arbitrary, but York Region & Toronto pay different taxes, have different governments, police, transit agencies etc etc. York Region is not part of Toronto just like Long Island isn't part of NYC. It's a completely different city.

I agree... and what happens when 905 grows so much that its built up all the way to places like Caledon. Should we not deny Caledon people a subway into Toronto because there isn't a giant border separating the areas. Also there are borders everywhere in life without physical borders. The great lakes separate Canada and the United states in a very small part of the country. The rest of the country there are places where literally you could walk between the two countries. I remember driving from Montana to Saskatchewan and almost passing the border because it looked like a random 500 sq ft bungalow with just a Canadian flag. just because there wasn't a physical wall or a bridge I had to cross I still knew I needed a passport.

 

[BMO]

??? Where? Unless you're talking about the PATH train? I'm talking about the NYC subway.

Yea I was looking at the PATH train

 

[BMO]

Solid Snake I often disagree with you but I strongly agree with you that we should be focusing on current needs rather than theoretical future needs.

There are huge amounts of Toronto with very high density that require higher order transit. I prefer we serve existing neighbourhoods before theoretical future ones.

Have you ever been to Yonge and Steeles at peak hour on a weekday? This isn't a theoretical future neighbourhood. It's actually been there since the 1800s. I know that's a tongue n cheek comment, but in reality it's been an established neighbourhood for quite a while, the Yonge Subway isn't some theoretical future case scenario it's real and the ridership is real. You can't say not to extend the subway because it doesn't have the ridership then say not to extend it because it will overcrowd the line downtown, that's two contradicting statements that have and are being thrown around.

 

[Solid Snake]

which are the lowest property taxes in a region of ~8M inhabitants who work at companies in Toronto as well, who's companies pay taxes to help Toronto keep the taxes low. And some would even argue Toronto gets way more hand-me-downs from the rest of the province so I really wouldn't venture down this road very far.

With the value of real estate within the city, if Toronto's taxes were as high as it's neighbours, there'd be a massive exodus towards the suburbs which is exactly what happened to Montreal since amalgamation and partial de-amalgamation

 

[sixrings]

my concern with building transit to these areas is that it simply encourages people to continue to move there. People should have to make a decision that if transit is going to be important then they have to move to a place with an existing subway or a GO train line. Don't move somewhere with nothing and then cause a fight that there isn't transit there. I use to live in the entertainment district and I thought it was crazy when people moved in the area and complained about the clubs. What were you thinking when you moved in. Similarly don't buy a house in no mans land and complain for transit that isn't meant for the such small densities when there are places in the city which are above capacity, meet the density demands and dont have any shovels in the ground for transit.