[donmillsview]

Rather than post within the topic and be way off topic, I'll bring the thread here:

TTC to cut suburban bus routes

Mr. Bow: much thanks for a stunning synopsis of this entire express v. local service debate. A true work of art, and very, very well written as usual. I sincerely appreciate it, and am going to resubscribe to your humble transit group (in spite of the reasons that I left it some months ago) because I miss your insights.

While I'm at it, with tongue in cheek, I'll announce what I have decided to give up for Lent: reading any posts in the Transportation Issues forum of this board. I've officially had it, and quite seriously, I doubt I'll ever read it again. It's just too annoying to read the same things over and over again, when it is clear that neither side of the debate is going to be able to do anything to convince the other side of the merits of it's opinions (for the reasons James outlined).

Sadly, in these forums and others, the mix of participants tends to be broad, and the varied education, life experience and maturity level of the different posters tends to lead to disjointed and uninspiring debate. The few groups I belong to which have fostered useful and intelligent debate for quite some time have one thing in common: solid moderation and a core group of educated posters who will guide the debate through their knowledge and experience, eliciting the comments of newer less educated members in a joint effort to share and to learn.

I'm going to suggest to the mods of this decent little community of city lovers to forever ban debate on express vs. non-express service. It results only in an escalation of the type of posts that no one likes to see - those that start to lean more and more towards personal attacks, using words like liar, fool and others.

With that I sign off from Transportation Issues.

 

[miketoronto]

I think you all need to calm down. And if you did not like the debate, then you did not have to read the posts.

That is what a forum is fore. Of course people are going to have different views.

 

[GeekyBoyTO]

Actually, mike, I hate to bring it to you but it is YOU who need to calm down and THINK before you start posting your stuff. I am hardly the only one on the forum who are of an opinion with regards to some of your posts, which at best are redundant and at worst, totally unreadable.

And yes it's a forum - so people will have different views - but one have the implicit understanding that such differences in views can be defended in a logical and rational manner - and not stifle interests towards the forum as a whole.

GB

 

[BuildTO]

And if you did not like the debate, then you did not have to read the posts.

You frequently use that argument, but it does not give anyone carte blanche to start the same types of threads ad nauseam.

Of course people are going to have different views.

And while everyone is entitled to express those views on these forums, the intelligent forumer will take into consideration an increasing number of complaints regarding the nature of his posts.

 

[jamerinbow]

Mike, it has been a while, but I wonder if you remember a person with the initials of R.M. who came on board the Transit Toronto mailing list and became a somewhat... disruptive influence. Heavily right-wing, he picked fights with other posters, yourself included. He was abusive, got everybody rather upset with him until I finally banned him from the group. Do you remember him? It's been a long time.

Well, he used the exact same arguments you just did.

...James

 

[miketoronto]

Read this one. The one above had some type-o's.


I am not going to fight with you guys about this anymore. I will say some things though.

First, I think it is a big disgrace that my thread was deleted, because a couple people on here have heart-attacks when someone wants to speed up transit.

Second, I think it is really snobbish when someone claims he knows more and is right, because he has a university degree, and the person making up the ideas does not yet.
I got some news for you James. You don't need a university degree to know how to make transit work better. You need to live in the area where the transit is running. And based on that, I think I have more experience then you, since you have probably been to Scarborough twice if that

Third. I find it really weird that such pro-transit people, are so happy with slow transit. Any educated person would know that slow transit is not going to attract as many riders as faster transit. And the fact that you feel forcing people to ride for 1 hour is somehow normal, when it can be driven in less then half the time, I find just weird.

Fourth . Complain all you want about my posts. At least my posts are some of the more interesting ones on this board, and actually gets people to think about issues, like access to Scarborough.
This board is to quiet half the time. At least my posts add some good needed debate.

In closing. James, you should come live out in Scarborough for a little while. Talk with residents like I have, commute everyday to downtown or some other cross-town area.
And then I want to hear what will be coming out of your mouth. I can bet you will be screaming the word "EXPRESS" faster then you can think.

End of express debate. I am not bringing up my ideas anymore with this group. As you guys can't take new ideas or new ways of thinking.

For a group that so wants Toronto to shine again. You sure are set in your old ways. Toronto is not going to shine without new ideas.
So stay stuck in the 1950s local bus. But don't complain when TTC keeps losing riders, and our downtown keeps losing business because people can't get down there fast enough.

 

[BuildTO]

Second, I think it is really snobbish when someone claims he knows more and is right, because he has a university degree, and the person making up the ideas does not yet.

Compare that with your own arrogance in assuming you can take over management of the TTC, and your self-righteousness in thinking you can dictate what is appropriate behaviour for all gays in the world. "Snobbish"? I think you're way over quota, which is why you don't have any credibility in arguments of this nature.

As you guys can't take new ideas or new ways of thinking.

For a group that so wants Toronto to shine again. You sure are set in your old ways. Toronto is not going to shine without new ideas.

"Can't take new ways of thinking"? "Set in your old ways"? Consider your own inability/unwillingness to take others' arguments into account. I've noticed more and more people here commenting on this - how in arguments you just reiterate your own ideas even when pure logic refutes them. Your arguments become circular until you abandon the thread (claiming you are leaving because people hate you).

I am not bringing up my ideas anymore with this group.

You keep making the claim that you are leaving a thread, only to return and keep arguing.

 

[jamerinbow]

I got some news for you James. You don't need a university degree to know how to make transit work better. You need to live in the area where the transit is running. And based on that, I think I have more experience then you, since you have probably been to Scarborough twice if that

I was born in Toronto. I lived in Toronto for the first nineteen years of my life. I frequently return to Toronto. I keep up to date on the news, especially transit news.

I have been in Scarborough at least two-hundred times. This includes the Scarborough Town Centre, Agincourt, viewing "The Great Wall of Scarborough", walking through Guildwood, and even taking transit up to Finch and Meadowvale and walking over to Nelson Road just for the heck of it.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about.

:rollin

 

[jamerinbow]

And, since you're sarcasm impaired, let me just note that 200 is a number I picked out of the air. It was probably more than that. I used the TTC extensively for the first 19 years of my life, and I still come back to the city and travel around frequently. I've taken the service out as far as Martin Grove and Steeles Avenue. Now *that's* far away from rapid transit. I have walked from College and University to Warden subway station just to see if it could be done.

I know my city. I know it as well as you do. I'd put my experience up against yours every time. Certainly, I'm not the one who makes arrogant assumptions about other people, their motives or their behaviour, here.

 

[EnviroTO]

First, I think it is a big disgrace that my thread was deleted, because a couple people on here have heart-attacks when someone wants to speed up transit.

I don't think that is why it was deleted. I think it may have been deleted because a debate was no longer a debate... it was a guy plugging his ears to economics and deciding that others are anti-transit or stupid for not believing in the same thing.

Second, I think it is really snobbish when someone claims he knows more and is right, because he has a university degree, and the person making up the ideas does not yet.
I got some news for you James. You don't need a university degree to know how to make transit work better. You need to live in the area where the transit is running. And based on that, I think I have more experience then you, since you have probably been to Scarborough twice if that.

Someone started talking about their degrees. I didn't get to see that but I find that to be in bad taste unless the degree is in transportation planning (i.e. directly related to the discussion).

Third. I find it really weird that such pro-transit people, are so happy with slow transit. Any educated person would know that slow transit is not going to attract as many riders as faster transit. And the fact that you feel forcing people to ride for 1 hour is somehow normal, when it can be driven in less then half the time, I find just weird.

I don't think anyone sounded pro-slow. Any educated person would agree that free food, comfortable leather seats, fast service, and a $2 fare would attract more riders... but there are two sides of a budget and revenue is only one side, cost is the other side that is not being considered. James took time to illustrate why is costs more to run an express bus even when it is completely full. The TTC planners, not the morons you paint them to be, try new services out all the time and have created a model to evaluate new services against. Scarborough isn't exactly a new area of town so I would imagine that analysis led TTC planners to believe that they would not recover enough of the the costs to make the service viable. I would not jump to the conclusion that TTC planners and all that don't see how perfect express service to downtown would be are dumb. Route planning isn't simply slapping a route on a map... there is financial analysis that I haven't seen you doing.

Fourth . Complain all you want about my posts. At least my posts are some of the more interesting ones on this board, and actually gets people to think about issues, like access to Scarborough. This board is to quiet half the time. At least my posts add some good needed debate.

If someone mentioned their degree in prior posts then this comment is easily as egotistical.

 

[Are Be]

Part of the problem with this forum -- and it is not unreasonable for this problem to emerge - is that there is a strong central 416 bias. There's some view that if you cannot afford to live downtown, you are somehow a morally and mentally inferior curiosity.

Any transit plan that suggests dealing with the GTA instead of only downtown, therefore, gets shot down.

 

[miketoronto]

Thank you for understanding Are Be. Atleast someone on here knows we have to make transit better in all of Toronto.

For people who believe in transit as a great way of moving people, I am appauled by the attitude of people like James on this board, when it comes to speeding up transit.

If we used the same attitudes of people on here when the subway was being built, then we would have no subway. Because oh my gosh, it does not stop at every block.

 

[EnviroTO]

I am appauled by the attitude of people like James on this board, when it comes to speeding up transit.

:rollin

If we used the same attitudes of people on here when the subway was being built, then we would have no subway. Because oh my gosh, it does not stop at every block.

Do you think there might be a tiny bit of difference between the economics of a subway under the most busy and densely populated street in Toronto and an express bus from Downtown to Scarborough City Centre travelling at least three times the distance? The original subway route at less than a third the route distance of your Rocket had 12 stops along a busy and bustling Yonge Street. You don't seem to get the message that James and others were trying to tell you... cost. Give permission to the GO to stop the bus at SCC... I think we can all agree to that. Have an SCC Rocket from downtown to SCC at a normal fare... I think we have a problem.

 

[GeekyBoyTO]

Can't afford to live downtown, yeah, like how - if you want a house with 50 ft frontage, 4+ rooms, and yet still expect the area with such a general built form can support good transit, you're out of your mind.

Give and take, c'est la vie.

GB

 

[miketoronto]

So then the people in North Toronto don't support transit, because they live in 4 bedroom houses with backyards?