[ChazYEG]

So if accidents are all the drivers fault and people should just be better drivers, then no need for speed limits, lights, stop signs or anything really because we should just expect people to drive better and there will be no problems.

Actually, part of what makes the drivers bad is the fact that THEY DO NOT PAY ATTENTION to any of the things you just listed. Being a good driver is not just being skilled at the wheel, it means following the damn traffic rules.
No one is asking for people to be perfect, but EVERY SINGLE ONE of the accidents was caused by people explicitly choosing to disregard signalling and break the rules. How is that a design flaw in the project?
And to @Glenco's point, have. you been to Toronto?
Or to pretty much any major city in Europe?
Hell, even RIO, a place renowned for its disregard for the rule of law IN GENERAL managed to get around a low-floor rail system crossing their entire downtown without any major incidents.

I am honestly glad that no one got severely injured in any of those accidents, but I feel absolutely no sympathy for the drivers who elected to to what they KNEW they shouldn't.

 

[ChazYEG]

Yes, I have been to Toronto but quit trying to deflect responsibility. It only diminishes credibility and turns people off more. People already detest politicians and bureaucrats when they play the blame game.

You're the one deflecting the responsibility, man. Instead of acknowledging whose fault those accidents were, you put the blame on the system design.
Toronto is a very fair example of how these vehicles can coexist with cars, especially considering that the streetcars literally mix with traffic, not even having a dedicated ROW.

 

[David A]

We are not Toronto which has had street cars for what 100 years, or some place in Europe with hundreds of years of history with very narrow streets, fewer cars and more pedestrians. This is a north american city with people not used to this.

You know when there is a hole in street and they have to put barricades and signs around it to the point of overkill, so they wont get sued? Yes, people should pay more attention to all kinds of things and they really should be better, but getting on a moral high horse isn't going to improve anything. It seems to me when there is a problem try fix it, blaming everyone else rightly or wrongly is not going to help.

 

[ChazYEG]

We are not Toronto which has had street cars for what 100 years, or some place in Europe with hundreds of years of history with very narrow streets, fewer cars and more pedestrians. This is a north american city with people not used to this.

You know when there is a hole in street and they have to put barricades and signs around it to the point of overkill, so they wont get sued? Yes, people should pay more attention to all kinds of things and they really should be better, but getting on a moral high horse isn't going to improve anything. It seems to me when there is a problem try fix it, blaming everyone else rightly or wrongly is not going to help.

So your suggestion is that we keep coddling and bending to the will of bad drivers who can't even follow the damn signs? It's not only paying attention to unexpected things, like a hole that shouldn't even be there in the first place... Is paying attention to signs and fixed infrastructure. This is fixed, well signalled infrastructure, that is there every single day. It's not just about the trains, it's the whole disregard for traffic rules. Again, it's the same level of argument that people use for complaining about photo radars... The radars are there, there's signage, there's the posted speed limit, and yet people choose to ignore it, and then complain that they got tickets.

Your own point about the holes renders your argument invalid, since the issue here is the disregard for the same devices: signs and obstacles. People are CHOOSING to ignore these because they think they're entitled, and arguments like yours keep enabling them.

You are also suggesting that we can't change things? Funny... we changed whole cities over the span of pretty much a decade or so, to accommodate cars, back in the 1950s and 60s, but we can't do it now?

And it seems like there is always an excuse to pin the blame where it's not due, as long as the cars and drivers are benefitting from it.
Europe can't be used as comparison... Toronto (a much bigger, denser NORTH AMERICAN city) is not a good comparison. Rio (a hellhole know for its intense traffic, chaotic streets and disregard for rules in general) was actually ignored by you in your arguments...

 

[ChazYEG]

Also, I maintain... I am glad no one got seriously hurt, but they will find no sympathy from me on anything else. They elected to break the rules, and instead of being victimized, they should be punished for their disregard for the traffic rules.
I'm talking HEFTY fines, the largest amount of demerits possible, etc...

 

[David A]

I've ignored it because actually I have never been to Rio, I don't get to travel as much as perhaps some bureaucrats or politicians. However, I suspect most people would not find Edmonton and Rio really that similar.

What was also ignored was when I said earlier responsibility and blame can be shared. Just in case that was missed, what that means is I didn't absolve anyone here, not the evil, but now long gone Harper, bad drivers or someone grandmother who is overwhelmed by all the signage and traffic, however just demonizing them is not productive either. So the people who run our city need to grow up and respond to the situation as it is, not as we would like it to be, it should be or it is somewhere else. You can't fix a mess by blaming everyone else.

Would I like Edmonton to be like Rio? Well, in some ways, it would be nice if we could comfortably walk around in beach wear outside in January here, but just pretending it is and doing so won't make that happen.

 

[Yegpeople]

Keith Gerein: No riders and no answers make Edmonton's Valley Line LRT a historic boondoggle

In project scale, length of delay and breadth of failures, the SE Valley Line has moved to the top of the infrastructure ineptitude meter

edmontonjournal.com

 

[ChazYEG]

someone grandmother who is overwhelmed by all the signage and traffic

If someone is overwhelmed by signage on the roads, they shouldn't be driving at all, since they are a safety risk to others and themselves. Also, if we had better, more accessible transit (oops...), maybe our elderly wouldn't need to rely on driving well into their 80s or more, and it'd be a lot safer, especially for themselves.

My point in comparing with Rio was exactly the stark differences... Rio is a chaotic, extremely crowded city, with a KNOWN issue with disregard for any kind of rule. If even they could make it work, I don't see why Edmonton can't.

And no, in this case, there is no blame to be shared. And I don't give a rat's ass about Harper, or any politician, for that matter, in this case. The blame is on the drivers who ELECTED to disregard signage, and on them alone. Another great analogy for this is the usual argument of blaming the victim for the aggression. If a person walks around and gets assaulted, it's not their fault that some a-hole decided to break the law, regardless of where they were, what they were wearing, etc... Same concept applies here.

 

[thommyjo]

So if accidents are all the drivers fault and people should just be better drivers, then no need for speed limits, lights, stop signs or anything really because we should just expect people to drive better and there will be no problems.

I'm quite sure the city normally considers what accidents happen when making changes or improvements to roads and intersections. It would be nice if people were better or perfect, but that is naive and unrealistic. We dismiss or ignore the feedback we are already getting here at our own peril.

This is a good example of a logical fallacy and an unhelpful way of discussing nuanced items. No one is suggesting we eliminate all traffic rules.

What people are suggesting is that we don’t see 8 drivers out of the millions who have driven by this train the last 6 months as reason to redesign a permanent train. Especially when all of those accident occurred due to illegally running red lights with clear signage present.

People just don’t write articles on your average car crash vs a train. Many roads in Edmonton see well over 8 crashes a year. We haven’t redesigned the henday, even after multiple fatal accidents most years…Should we?

 

[BrettB]

Were there any accidents when the train was operating at almost full frequency recently?

There may still be crashes to come, but I don't doubt people will adjust especially when they see trains running all day.

As an aside, someone mentioned earlier that Quebec bans right hand turns. That used to be the case, but for the past 20 years or so, right hand turns on red have been allowed except on the island of Montréal.

 

[EdmTrekker]

I was behind a truck on the NW corner waiting to turn right and could not see signage that said no right turns. The only no right turn lighted sign was awkward to my view. They need to install more of the no right turn red flashing lights in the right hand lane before the intersection was as larger truck block the view of the only sign there now.

 

[MacLac]

So this is the makings of the Mis station yet the West Ed station does not have the similar infrastructure on the go yet.

 

[David A]

I was behind a truck on the NW corner waiting to turn right and could not see signage that said no right turns. The only no right turn lighted sign was awkward to my view. They need to install more of the no right turn red flashing lights in the right hand lane before the intersection was as larger truck block the view of the only sign there now.

I don't know exactly what the solution is, but I do believe there is a problem and there is probably a solution. It might be something simple like signage placement or it might be a combination of this and other things. The solution may even vary by location.

 

[soupcrate]

I don't often agree with him, but I think in this case he has some valid points. Maybe he is a bit harsh, but not wrong here.

GUNTER: Edmonton's LRT delay woes the result of council's own decisions

What city geniuses signed off on the deal without the ability to place their own staff on the project team and demand instant updates?

edmontonsun.com

I suppose those not on council or otherwise involved at the time have some leeway, but this was an agreement the city entered into willingly at the time.

I'm pretty the fault doesn't lie with "city geniuses", but rather the federal conservatives that required transit projects to be a P3 in order to receive federal funding.

 

[thommyjo]

From this video: