Freedm said:
Taking a car, as opposed to public transit, is more about freedom than anything so even with traffic jams I still prefer my car. I don't have to worry about a schedule or a fixed route. I can go wherever I want, whenever I want and public transit just can't compete with that.
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That's fine and dandy, but that freedom to use the most space- and energy-inefficient mode of transport has its costs that we all bear whether or not we share that particular vision of "freedom."

And that vision is not universal. Spend time in a city like London and you realize how much freedom the extensive public transit system affords locals and visitors. Spend time in dutch cities to realize that being able to safely travel anywhere by bike is freedom.

Spend time in Toronto to realize how decades of neglecting every other mode of transport rapidly degrades that sense of freedom when you're basically parked on the DVP, the 401, or gridlocked downtown.

That "freedom" you enjoy right now is temporary, because the more people that want to enjoy it, the less there is for everyone.

Not to mention not everyone can partake in that particular "freedom" whether for financial, physical, or mental health reasons. In those cases, other people's sense of freedom becomes a prison for them.
 
Daveography said:
That's fine and dandy, but that freedom to use the most space- and energy-inefficient mode of transport has its costs that we all bear whether or not we share that particular vision of "freedom."

And that vision is not universal. Spend time in a city like London and you realize how much freedom the extensive public transit system affords locals and visitors. Spend time in dutch cities to realize that being able to safely travel anywhere by bike is freedom.

Spend time in Toronto to realize how decades of neglecting every other mode of transport rapidly degrades that sense of freedom when you're basically parked on the DVP, the 401, or gridlocked downtown.

That "freedom" you enjoy right now is temporary, because the more people that want to enjoy it, the less there is for everyone.
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Right. I'm a bad person. I should take transit for the good of the collective. :rolleyes:

Daveography said:
Not to mention not everyone can partake in that particular "freedom" whether for financial, physical, or mental health reasons. In those cases, other people's sense of freedom becomes a prison for them.
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Are you really saying I should not enjoy my freedom because other people don't have the same freedom? Really? If one suffers we should all suffer?
 
@Freedm Please, you shouldn't take what Dave said so personally. He isn't specifically calling you out for driving nor saying that people who drive are bad people, that isn't what the point of the argument is. What we're both trying to get at here is that this issue is one of society (ergo it involves all of us) and any change or shift in trends and practices is a societal one.

Going back to the issue... I'll put it like this: Driving and the use of private road vehicles isn't inherently bad, and it could even be said that private transport is the yin to public transport's yang; both function very differently yet need each other in order to fill the whole, which is society.

However in North America, because car-oriented development was the chosen strategy to deal with a booming population back in the 50's and 60's, an over-reliance on personal vehicles still exists today and has lead to wide social inequalities and major arteries and highways gridlocked with traffic on the daily, bringing economic development and innovation to a drastic halt. This is an abuse of one mode of transport, and forces people who could be productive and valuable members of our society with public transport to either spend every cent they can spare to cover thousands of dollars in annual car payments... or simply fall between the cracks.

So Freedm, you simply prefer to drive your car, and that's perfectly fine. What isn't okay is when driving is the only viable option for everyone, because that creates an unhealthy and unproductive environment. The only way for society to truly work all is when somebody can look at a car, and then at bus, train, or whatever else, and chose which one they'll utilize solely because it fits their personal preference.

Either one would fulfill their needs, yet they have the freedom to chose.
 
Geography is different across the globe and has had a great impact on how different cities have naturally developed over time. The conversation here makes one thing very clear - one solution does not fit all. ;)
 
Of course I agree that there should be options for everyone. I didn't get my first car until I was 26 years old so I know what it's like to rely on public transit, and I was born and raised in Holland so I know all about the bicycle network there as well, and I also lived in Toronto for five years so I'm aware of the traffic which is one of the reasons why I now live here, and so if the argument is "transit is an important part of our transportation network" then there's no argument from me, but if it starts to sound like "cars are evil" then I take exception to that because when I got my first car it opened up a whole new world for me and I shouldn't have to feel guilty about that.

In any case, no hard feelings. It's just a discussion and that's what this place is for, so it's all good, but that doesn't mean I won't push back if I feel like I'm being pushed.
 
I think that @Daveography has always made it clear that he is in favor and fully supports a balanced approach to transportation. Speaking for him and underscoring the parts that I believe he is scorched about (and I concur, btw) are: massive surface parking lots (especially in core areas or along "main streets"), inordinately wide auto thoroughfares, lack of connected bicycle lanes, ineffectual bus grids, and, generally, carbon pollution. The future solutions will, imho, look something like this -- a true mix of transit types, including autonomous call-on-demand buses; light rail (eventually converted to LSM propulsion to get rid of those ugly overhead power lines and increase energy efficiency); Antique rail where appropriate and where speed is not a factor (binding City pedestrian areas together in an experiential fashion); smaller commuter-type electric cars; inner-City automated electric delivery vans; year-round hybridized water-transport river vehicles; the Gondola; mid-City regional air transportation (electric "drones"); and privately-owned alternative-formed electric automated vehicles where an actual driver is not needed (these can be primarily for family outings, longer excursions, rural trips. I believe -- and I may be wrong -- that high-speed rail has come and gone. I also believe that when autonomous electric semi-trailers become the norm that rail delivery systems will suffer and slowly disintegrate, the lines salvaged for super-high experiential passenger travel, especially for short rural-berg-to-rural-berg trips, better knitting rural enclaves to urban centres.
 
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Would be epic if the circumstances arose whereby the bridge coming together would be the final piece in adjoining the whole north and south parts of the track. Too bad that is not going to happen, b/c they'll be a gazillion parts not connected 😴
 
Next stop, Bonnie Doon...
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Freedm said:
Right. I'm a bad person. I should take transit for the good of the collective. :rolleyes:

Are you really saying I should not enjoy my freedom because other people don't have the same freedom? Really? If one suffers we should all suffer?
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I've said none of those things. I only ask that people consider that this particular freedom is not universally enjoyed; it is a privilege that not everyone has, it has costs that even those who can't drive pay for, and that it is a finite resource that will run out.

This started because you made the statement that "Adding a train does not help people with cars." People with cars aren't the ones who need help moving about their city. It has been and continues to be the least neglected mode of transportation, and that needs to change.

And that change will be hard, but it will only get harder the longer we continue down the same path of car-first thinking.
 
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