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wild goose chase

wild goose chase

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I know the Indo-Canadian communities on the West coast are older, with the Sikh's in BC coming by the late 1800's.

What about in Toronto? Where did the first Indo-Canadians arrive in the city in terms of neighbourhoods and when? Did they mostly speak Punjabi, Hindi-Urdu or something else? Were they concentrated in any particular occupations?

I have heard people tell me about Indo-Canadians they've known whose families arrived from the 60s, 70s and 80s onwards in Ontario, although I haven't heard about communities prior. Most of the Indo-Canadians I know from Toronto are first or second generation. Does the Little India neighbourhood on Gerrard Street have a history of Indo-Canadians living there at least since the 60s?
 
Here's some stats on the number of East Indians in the Toronto area from 1991. Seems like they called them East Indians at the time, I'm assuming it's equivalent to South Asian which was not a category on the 1991 census. For the home language, I'm using to try to gauge how the different South Asian sub-groups are distributed.

Brampton: 14,950 (6.40%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 115 (400)
Gujurati: 810 (1,660)
Punjabi: 6,360 (9,795)
Urdu: 710 (2,255)
Hindi: 415 (4,620)

Markham: 9,185 (5.99%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 500 (830)
Gujurati: 1010 (2,495)
Punjabi: 980 (2,030)
Urdu: 405 (1,720)
Hindi: 520 (3,070)

Mississauga: 27,235 (5.90%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 1,535 (2,615)
Gujurati: 1,045 (2,810)
Punjabi: 9,045 (14,635)
Urdu: 1,905 (5,475)
Hindi: 970 (8,200)

Scarborough: 26,960 (5.18%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 7,280 (11,035)
Gujurati: 3,505 (6,665)
Punjabi: 2,290 (4,510)
Urdu: 2,215 (5,225)
Hindi: 1,060 (7,685)

East York: 4,720 (4.63%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 700 (900)
Gujurati: 1,380 (2,820)
Punjabi: 145 (385)
Urdu: 290 (1,115)
Hindi: 120 (970)

Etobicoke: 13,540 (4.40%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 845 (1,320)
Gujurati: 1,005 (1,870)
Punjabi: 5,325 (7,610)
Urdu: 675 (2,125)
Hindi: 625 (4,190)

North York: 20,160 (3.61%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 2,890 (4,485)
Gujurati: 2,125 (4,735)
Punjabi: 4,525 (6,955)
Urdu: 1,400 (3,875)
Hindi: 1,010 (6,650)

Vaughan: 3,920 (3.53%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 20 (90)
Gujurati: 510 (1,095)
Punjabi: 480 (1,045)
Urdu: 180 (385)
Hindi: 170 (1,305)

Ajax: 1,670 (2.82%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 20 (75)
Gujurati: 55 (205)
Punjabi: 185 (400)
Urdu: 15 (245)
Hindi: 0 (430)

Pickering: 1,675 (2.45%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 0 (60)
Gujurati: 215 (330)
Punjabi: 70 (335)
Urdu: 140 (615)
Hindi: 65 (370)

Richmond Hill: 1,935 (2.42%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 0 (65)
Gujurati: 155 (455)
Punjabi: 75 (355)
Urdu: 55 (340)
Hindi: 230 (675)

Oakville: 2,480 (2.18%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 10 (50)
Gujurati: 70 (325)
Punjabi: 575 (1,315)
Urdu: 95 (395)
Hindi: 55 (775)

York: 2,505 (1.80%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 650 (900)
Gujurati: 155 (340)
Punjabi: 400 (660)
Urdu: 245 (680)
Hindi: 120 (665)

Old Toronto: 9,255 (1.47%)
Home languages that are native to South Asia* (population with knowledge of language in brackets)
Tamil: 3,635 (4,845)
Gujurati: 880 (1,740)
Punjabi: 1,150 (1,935)
Urdu: 775 (2,520)
Hindi: 355 (2,975)

*other South Asian languages would just have been lumped under "other" which would include non-South Asian languages too. Most notable, there's no data for Bengali speakers.
Some South Asians might know how to speak their ancestral language but no longer speak it at home, others might have knowledge of multiple South Asian based languages.

Looks like Tamils were mostly based in Central Toronto and Scarborough while the Punjabis were already fairly suburbanized into Brampton and Mississauga/Etobicoke (presumably in large part in Malton/Rexdale). However, even for all East Indians, it looks like they were already relatively suburbanized in 1991 since Old Toronto had a lower % than most suburbs. All the above suburbs had higher percentages, including Oakville which I didn't expect, as did Whitby (but didn't bother including it since it has <1000 East Indians). It's only the really far flung suburbs like Newmarket, Oshawa and Milton that had lower percentages of South Asians than Old Toronto. It looks like the more outlying suburbs of Durham, York and Halton had more established/assimilated East Indians since the % of them that speaks one of those 5 languages at home is smaller.

So patterns were already somewhat similar to today - Tamils/Sri Lankans in the East, Punjabis/Sikhs in the NE, Pakistanis (Urdu) in Mississauga and Scarborough (I think they're more numerous in Sauga vs Scarb now though) and other South Asians (Hindi/Gujurati) kind of all over.
 
wild goose chase said:
Does the Little India neighbourhood on Gerrard Street have a history of Indo-Canadians living there at least since the 60s?
Click to expand...
Little India basically doesn't have a history of Indo-Canadians living there period. In 1991 East Indians were less than 2% of the population compared to a Chinese population of about 20-25%. Chinatown East was already established at that time, so I guess there were still a fair bit of Chinese living further east near Gerrard. Since 1991, the Chinese population of Chinatown East and Little India has declined while the South Asian population has grown, but South Asians in Little India are still less than 10% of the total despite making up 15% of the CMA's overall population.
 
Memph said:
Looks like Tamils were mostly based in Central Toronto and Scarborough while the Punjabis were already fairly suburbanized into Brampton and Mississauga/Etobicoke (presumably in large part in Malton/Rexdale). However, even for all East Indians, it looks like they were already relatively suburbanized in 1991 since Old Toronto had a lower % than most suburbs. All the above suburbs had higher percentages, including Oakville which I didn't expect, as did Whitby (but didn't bother including it since it has <1000 East Indians). It's only the really far flung suburbs like Newmarket, Oshawa and Milton that had lower percentages of South Asians than Old Toronto. It looks like the more outlying suburbs of Durham, York and Halton had more established/assimilated East Indians since the % of them that speaks one of those 5 languages at home is smaller.

So patterns were already somewhat similar to today - Tamils/Sri Lankans in the East, Punjabis/Sikhs in the NE, Pakistanis (Urdu) in Mississauga and Scarborough (I think they're more numerous in Sauga vs Scarb now though) and other South Asians (Hindi/Gujurati) kind of all over.
Click to expand...
Memph said:
Little India basically doesn't have a history of Indo-Canadians living there period. In 1991 East Indians were less than 2% of the population compared to a Chinese population of about 20-25%. Chinatown East was already established at that time, so I guess there were still a fair bit of Chinese living further east near Gerrard. Since 1991, the Chinese population of Chinatown East and Little India has declined while the South Asian population has grown, but South Asians in Little India are still less than 10% of the total despite making up 15% of the CMA's overall population.
Click to expand...

Interesting stats. So, it seems like South Asian immigrants generally settled in larger numbers to the "suburbs" directly, unlike European immigrants (such as Italians) and Chinese immigrants that historically arrived in Old Toronto and then moved further afield to the GTA. I think "city to suburbs" was more generally, and more commonly the pattern for newcomers in the past, but perhaps it's no longer the case for the most recent arrivals (not only in Toronto, but many North American cities it seems).

I grew up in the 90s in North York and spent a lot of time in Scarborough as well as (the former city of) Toronto and by that time, people of South Asian descent were already well established in many neighbourhoods, including the children of Sri Lankan immigrants. Although I wasn't born yet in the 70s, I do recall family members and friends telling me there was already a very small but definitely noticeable South Asian community in Toronto by the 70s and 80s, enough that media geared towards the community (like books, movies broadcast on TV) could be found locally.

I didn't realize that Little India had very little to do with the bulk of South Asian immigration to Toronto -- I guess aside from the wave of Sri Lankan refugees, downtown wasn't really much of a first generation "landing spot".
 
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I wonder why the Gerrard Indian Bazaar area branded itself as Toronto's Little India when it didn't really have the largest concentration of Indo-Canadians and in fact a lower percentage than many other places in Toronto? Usually neighbourhoods named after cultural groups like Little Italy, Greektown, Chinatown, tend to be known as where the groups first arrived or had their largest concentration historically.

Was Little India more a place geared towards commercial activity from Indo-Canadians from across the GTA, rather than place with a higher residential concentration? Yet from my experience, I knew a lot of South Asian Canadians growing up living in North York and Scarborough who didn't really go downtown that often.
 
It became a thing because of the theatre, apparently. Screened Bollywood films after being bought by an Indian businessman. IIRC, though, he bought more than that -- it was the whole block or blocks, I think.

Little India has become much less 'Indian' recently -- lots of non-Indian bars, cafes, etc. going in, and Zero Gravity circus becoming a new keystone for the strip.
 
I guess most South Asians arrived in Toronto when housing costs and turn-over in the inner city were already not that favourable to accommodating large influxes of immigrants.

For 1981 there's less good data, there doesn't seem to be anything on ethnicity, just place of birth and only as specific as "Asia" of which there were 175,000 in 1981 (out of about 3.3million in the CMA). There's also stats for # of people with Chinese as a mother tongue but nothing for South Asian languages.

Census Tract 29 (Chinatown East more or less) already had 1385 out of 6260 residents born in Asia, not a huge amount (less than in 91) but enough to be noticeable. Similar situation in Chinatown-Spadina, census tract 39 was 900 out of 3855 born in Asia, it covers Queen to Dundas to Bathurst to Spadina (Alexandra Park area).

Regent Park had 1275 out of 9930 born in Asia, that also includes the areas up to the Don River, Parliament and Queen that weren't officially part of Regent Park.

In St James Town 2425 out of 11500 were born in Asia.

In census tract 190.01 which includes Crescent Town, 1485 out of 7480 were born in Asia.

in Flemingdon Park 1740 out of 11,135 were born in Asia.

In census tract 249.01 in northern Rexdale 315 out of 4675 were born in Asia.

In census tract 341.01 in Oakridge, 505 out of 7320 were born in Asia.

In census tract 376.02 in Scarborough near Pacific Mall 2800 out of 13,150 were born in Asia

Only 90 out of 2575 were born in Asia in census tract 528 which was split up into a whole bunch of census tracts since including possibly the most South Asian census tract in the GTA today which is around Ray Lawson between McLaughlin and Chingacousy. It's next to the first Gurdwara in Ontario: http://www.gurdwarananaksar.com/english/brampton_e.html
Census tract 528 also includes the whole Uptown Hurontario/East Credit area of Mississauga, Meadowvale and everything in Brampton South of Steeles and West of Kennedy. So it looks like that area was largely rural and all those subdivisions were mostly built after 1981.

440 out of 7235 were born in Asia in census tract 530 in Malton.

Census tract 378.03 which included all of Malvern had 2700 out of 17,230 born in Asia.

So looks like Chinatown might have been a relatively significant concentration of Chinese at the time. South Asians and East Asians were already beginning to spread out into the "towers in the park" and low rise suburban communities, but were not numerous enough to be a majority in those places.
 
I guess it's harder to tell if there isn't ethnicity, as opposed to birthplace, data far back, but I wonder how much the population in Toronto increased, or even just got its start, from immigration directly from South Asia to here, as opposed to people, of the same ethnic origins, from other provinces (such as BC) migrating to Toronto for job opportunities. BC probably had a longer standing community of both South and East Asians before Toronto, but now Toronto is tops in both. Toronto overtook Vancouver in population of Chinese descent by the mid 20th century (by contrast, in the US, the hub of culture and sheer population for Asian-Americans mostly is still West-coast centered, especially California) but I'm not sure if the same is true for Indians in Toronto.

Toronto is the largest hub for immigrants due to its size currently but also for people in other provinces more generally, but considering its foreign born population, it probably grows more from direct migration from the source countries than (Canadian-born) individuals from other provinces, although you could also have an Asian-born immigrant family arriving first somewhere like Saskatchewan and then later to the GTA, say Brampton, but not having lived in the city of Toronto itself. That said, I have known at least some examples of Canadian-born (including one from BC) South-Asian Canadians from outside Ontario who later moved to Toronto for school or work.
 
There are certainly examples of interprovincial migration, but the he growth of the South Asian population in the GTA is driven by immigration and high birth rates. Also it is much more diverse than that of BC, where the South Asian population is overwhelmingly Sikh, while here you can find concentrations of Sikhs, Tamils, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis etc.
 
King of Kensington said:
There are certainly examples of interprovincial migration, but the he growth of the South Asian population in the GTA is driven by immigration and high birth rates. Also it is much more diverse than that of BC, where the South Asian population is overwhelmingly Sikh, while here you can find concentrations of Sikhs, Tamils, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis etc.
Click to expand...

Come to think of it, there doesn't seem to be many instances of ethnic groups interprovincially migrating to Toronto being the main driver of growth for that community rather than direct arrivals from the old country, probably because Toronto is a big hub of immigration that outweighs any internal migration. Even say, the Ukrainian homesteaders of the prairies didn't seem to contribute to the Ukrainian Torontonian population growth as opposed to immigration straight from Ukraine, especially in the Soviet years.

When you hear about ethnic group X increasing their representation in numbers in a city in Canada, it seems like it's hard to find an example that is mainly due to internal movement alone. Probably since we don't have an analogue of say, the Great Migration in the US, where African-Americans moved from one part within the same country to another. I don't know if say, Asian American or Latino American movement between US cities and states is as strong a driver in changing demographics locally as opposed to new immigration though, but it seems ethnic groups spread around more in the US than in Canada where most ethnic groups (even more so for visible minorities) have their hubs be Toronto-centric (if not the two other big cities).
 
Also, the Jewish populations of South Florida and California (and probably Vancouver, though it's not a big community) grew mostly through internal migration rather than from direct immigration a century ago.
 
Since we hear about Alberta (maybe not so much now due to lower oil prices) attracting a lot of migration from farther east, including Ontario, perhaps there are at least some groups in Alberta whose communities grew that way, rather than by direct international migration. The mayor of Calgary was born in Toronto.

Another thing on the topic of South Asian descent in Canada and Toronto specifically, I notice a lot of people whose ancestry is South Asian but immigrated from other parts of the world such as Africa and the Caribbean. For example, there are many in the Guyanese community with either (or both) Indian and African roots.
 
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wild goose chase said:
Come to think of it, there doesn't seem to be many instances of ethnic groups interprovincially migrating to Toronto being the main driver of growth for that community rather than direct arrivals from the old country, probably because Toronto is a big hub of immigration that outweighs any internal migration.
Click to expand...
King of Kensington said:
Also, the Jewish populations of South Florida and California (and probably Vancouver, though it's not a big community) grew mostly through internal migration rather than from direct immigration a century ago.
Click to expand...

Another example I thought of were Japanese-Canadians in Toronto. They mostly trace their roots to the West coast, since there was very little immigration from Japan further east and direct immigration from Japan is rare now.
 
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