[Glen]

tAs to "cheap labour" in China, I'd like to add a few comments. Many Canadians seem to dislike Chinese products because they think those poor factories workers who work 12 hours a day with no benefit are treated unfairly and therefore it is an issue of "human rights" and by not buying from Walmart is some sort of heroic and progressive action. I would say it is laughable and ignorant.

Those poor workers choose to work that way because that's the best money they can make. Yes, they have a hard life but the truth is, without Walmart etc, they will have no job and end up working in the field doing algricultural work all day, making even less money. China's population has determined that labour will be cheap for a long time as low skilled supply is so abundant. You can't artificially inflate wage by forcing companies to pay more, can you? Those workers may be working for $2 an hour but that's what low skilled labour is worth in China, and $2 an hour is not that low in Chinese standards (starting salary for fresh college graduates is somewhere about $500 a month in large cities like shanghai, which is less than $3 per hour). You wanna pay them more, all of them? Go ahead. You guys are so out of touch of the reality and being obsessed with all this "human rights" crap and feeling all good about your seemingly higher morality, without understanding how things really work in other countries. You think it is only fair to pay someone $30 an hour for basic labour such as installing a AC unit? Can you really think it is realistic to artificially increase everyone's wage by 5 to 10 times? Learn some basically economics and then judge.

That is wrong on so many accounts. Did you ever consider that is the "best they can make" because that is the way the laws in China work? Of course it is the best they can make when they are not allowed to organize into unions. Or that labour market competetion is distorted by forced intenrships ( see : Foxconn's Other Dirty Secret: The World's Largest 'Internship' Program ) or differing labour and environmental standards. So yes, it is the best they can make. Just not for tthe reasons you think.

NB. Professionals here, if subjeceted to competition, would see a decline in their wages. They best they can get is due to the fact that they are sheilded from competition.

 

[kkgg7]

That is wrong on so many accounts. Did you ever consider that is the "best they can make" because that is the way the laws in China work? Of course it is the best they can make when they are not allowed to organize into unions. Or that labour market competetion is distorted by forced intenrships ( see : Foxconn's Other Dirty Secret: The World's Largest 'Internship' Program ) or differing labour and environmental standards. So yes, it is the best they can make. Just not for tthe reasons you think.

NB. Professionals here, if subjeceted to competition, would see a decline in their wages. They best they can get is due to the fact that they are sheilded from competition.

Organized into unions where subway ticket collectors make more money than university lecturers? So that no matter how your behave, you have zero chance of getting fired and guaranteed a wage increase each year? So that transit workers, flight attendants and pilots can just go on strike because they think their wage and benefit didn't increase as much as they would like, when the economy is still in deep shit?

Thank you very much. Unions do far more harm than it does good in general. It only fosters lazy self-entitled incompetents workers. Get real, look at what is happening in Europe. Greece, Italy and Spain did exactly what you seem to be proposing here and now they are the PIGS and world's laughing stock. Governments are scrambling to undo what unions and years of lack of competition did to the economy. Germany was able to perform well precisely because its wage didn't increase as insanely as those PIGS countries. GM went bankrupt precisely because it was obligated to pay too much to its retired workers and existing ones. Toyota workers earn salaries less than half of GM workers, while producing superior cars, that's how they beat GM.

Have you even considered the possibility that if the law in China requires factories to allow organized labour unions to bargain for wages a lot higher than what market determines, how many factories will simply shut down? Yes, you will be lucky if you are one of them who can hide your union protection with high wages and job security, what about the rest of the labour force who end up unable to find a job and make ends meet? You won't be native to think that all those Chinese factories are so profitable that they are able to employ all the unskilled workers in the market at the rate your seem to think is fair, will you? If 10 million migrant workers can't find a job because factories don't have such high demand due to higher wages requirements, will be your generous enough to hire them?

Yeah, it is easy to say "Oh, those poor workers should be paid 5 times they are now" as if you are some sort of saint. The reality is employers are sensitive to labour price. You can't possibly make wage deviate from market value and expect everyone to have a job. Go back to Econ 101.

 

[gabe]

This is the typical kkgg7 argument is that everybody should settle for lower wages and poorer working conditions instead of striving for higher wages as if only CEO's and the totally useless management class should make any money. If it wasn't for unions kkgg7, Canadians maybe stuck working 12 hour days 6 days week pissing and shitting in buckets next to their machines like they do in China. China's way of helping workers is to install nets outside the factories to catch workers trying to commit suicide.

 

[Tuscani01]

Well, Canadian Tire is downtown and more and more of their stuff is made in China so I can't see Walmart being any worse. In fact, they do offer good savings on pharmacy products so I see it as a good thing. It's really not anyone's job to keep higher-priced retailers in business. Many years ago, things in Canada were typically 100% more costly than the U.S. Now, things are (aside from automobiles and a few other items) more in-line with the value of our dollar and despite complaints about cut-rate retailers, we are materially better off today than 20 years ago.

Dont be so quick to dismiss things made in China. Quality has improved by leaps and bounds over the years. Canadian Tire is doing way more business over seas than ever before right now, but the sourcing process is so rigid, that quality of product sourced from places like China has to be equal to or better than leading national brands in order to be approved. Canadian Tire has seen its defect rate shrink to under 4% over the last few years, so the statistics show that quality is definitely much better today than ever before.

I can only speak for Canadian Tire, because I work on global sourcing for the company, but I am assuming that Walmart has similar standards for anything coming from overseas.

As for the whole going overseas and taking advantage of workers, Canadian Tire also has a process where every vendor has regular inspections by corporate staff to ensure that they meet our standards for working conditions. Any vendor that fails to meet our standards gets dropped and we dont do business with them anymore. Cost is not the only thing we look at when selecting vendors, and some even charge us more for certain things than we would pay to have it made closer to home. Its a big factor, but never a deal breaker.

Just to end this, anyone who thinks they are doing better by buying a product not made in China is only fooling themselves. You are really no better off. Even vendors here in Canada who we deal with buy their parts from China, so there is no way to completely avoid it.

 

[gabe]

Toyota workers earn salaries less than half of GM workers, while producing superior cars, that's how they beat GM

No they don't!! American and Canadian Toyota workers salaries are on par with GM! That's one way to keep the unions away, is to pay workers livable wages with decent benefits. Both Honda and Toyota use a lot of UAW and CAW made parts on their vehicles because of the quality!! I bet you my Toyota Venza has more North American parts on it than most GM's !!! Honda is building a new plant in Ohio which isn't a right to work state and is also heavily unionized.

 

[Tuscani01]

Your logic doesn't fly here.
No one says you can only buy cheap and easily disposable products from China, right? Chinese imports only provides more options to folks who can't afford higher and stuff. Why is that a bad thing? If you don't like furniture made in China, they are better ones made in Italy, no one says you have to buy Chinese products, right?

Your logic is like saying H&M shouldn't exist because their products are too cheap and don't last long enough, and everyone should go buy Armani. Funny, eh?

You might counter-argue that Chinese imports take Canadian jobs away, etc. The truth is, if most Canadians prefer higher quality, more expensive Canadian products, stuff made in Canada should still have a strong market and would still be able to make money, isn't that right? For example, Iphone is a lot more expensive than some cheap mobile phone made in China, but that didn't prevent Iphones to sell better than anyone else, did it?

In sum, if Canadians don't like cheap products from China, they may choose to buy high quality products. It makes no sense to complain the sheer availability of Chinese products that some other people will choose to buy. Go to Harry Rosen, there are expensive socks not made in China I am sure.

And if Chinese cheap labour takes away Canadian manufacture jobs, that only means the market has determined that the quality of Canadian made products are not high enough to justify its much higher price, what is complain here? Go back to the drawing board and made superior products that make consumers think worth their price, like Apple does. If you can't do that, that means you are a loser in the market. And true, losers always complain.

You are 100% correct. The only reason why lower quality product exists on the market is because it is what people want. Every smart retailer has multiple lines of quality to choose from, in order to cater to a variety of needs and abilities. Ie. Canadian Tire has high end tools like Makita, DeWalt etc, then it has tools for the home handyman like Mastercraft and Mastercraft Maximum, and then finally it has the lower end brand Jobmate for those who do some housework but cant afford a $200 drill or saw. The options are there for consumers, and unfortunately not everyone is able to afford the higher end options. Should these people not be allowed to own tools in this case?

Sure we can lower the price of the bigger brands, but then where do you cut costs? Do we pay the people making the product less? Do we lower the quality? Do we pay front line employees in stores less?

 

[Tewder]

I refuse to shop at Walmart, not just because everything is from China but because of their predatory business practices. Then again, I'm not your average consumer. I'll pay more for 'made in Canada' (or the USA). It's ok by me.

 

[Glen]

Organized into unions where subway ticket collectors make more money than university lecturers? So that no matter how your behave, you have zero chance of getting fired and guaranteed a wage increase each year? So that transit workers, flight attendants and pilots can just go on strike because they think their wage and benefit didn't increase as much as they would like, when the economy is still in deep shit?

Yes it is possible for labour to price itself out of the market. The difference is that the market labour is competing against is worldwide. That university lecturer, doctor, lawyer, engineer, dentist, etc. do not face the same conundrum. I had an interesting discussion of a hypothetical legal case with a visiting law professor to Harvard. I lamented that though he thought it would be an interesting case to pursue he could not do so in Canada (not a member of the Bar). There exists a whole underground of doctors, dentist, veterinarians, taxi's in our very city, because they non-unionized counterparts have priced themselves out of the market. If they were made legitimate there would be downward pressure on the legal [sic] parties. Every job in this country is over payed when compared to global competition.

 

[Glen]

As for the whole going overseas and taking advantage of workers, Canadian Tire also has a process where every vendor has regular inspections by corporate staff to ensure that they meet our standards for working conditions. Any vendor that fails to meet our standards gets dropped and we dont do business with them anymore. Cost is not the only thing we look at when selecting vendors, and some even charge us more for certain things than we would pay to have it made closer to home. Its a big factor, but never a deal breaker.

There are many reason's to outsorce to China. Cheap labour is low on the list. Capital subsidises, and reuglatory enviroments are higher up. As for your inspections, Apple does the same (if not more), yet deplorable conditions persist. While you may audit the manufacturer do you check the subcontractors? How about the coal mines and steele plants where the metal for my socket kit comes from? The audits that take place are nothing more than red herrings for check box marketing.

Would your audits have caught these dangers?......

http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...uminum_dust_caused_Chinese_factory_explosions

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/technology/23apple.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Tuscani01]

There are many reason's to outsorce to China. Cheap labour is low on the list. Capital subsidises, and reuglatory enviroments are higher up. As for your inspections, Apple does the same (if not more), yet deplorable conditions persist. While you may audit the manufacturer do you check the subcontractors? How about the coal mines and steele plants where the metal for my socket kit comes from? The audits that take place are nothing more than red herrings for check box marketing.

Would your audits have caught these dangers?......

http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...uminum_dust_caused_Chinese_factory_explosions

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/technology/23apple.html?pagewanted=all

No, but we could still run into the exact same problems with Canadian manufacturers. Just because the item says made in Canada, does not mean every part is from here in Canada. We have no control over the parts that are used in our products and rarely know where they come from. It doesn't make a difference whether we are sourcing from China or Canada. Its something that could be improved, but its extremely difficult because suppliers and vendors are constantly changing. Its nearly impossible to monitor things at that level.

 

[Tewder]

Fair enough, but if you get to know the companies/outfits that are supplying you it is easier to make informed choices. When I buy from a local store where I know the owner I can discuss these matters. This is impossible when it's coming from China. I know you can't do this for everything but you'd be surprised how much more is available now if you take the time to look.

 

[Torontovibe]

Your logic doesn't fly here.
No one says you can only buy cheap and easily disposable products from China, right? Chinese imports only provides more options to folks who can't afford higher and stuff. Why is that a bad thing? If you don't like furniture made in China, they are better ones made in Italy, no one says you have to buy Chinese products, right?

Your logic is like saying H&M shouldn't exist because their products are too cheap and don't last long enough, and everyone should go buy Armani. Funny, eh?

You might counter-argue that Chinese imports take Canadian jobs away, etc. The truth is, if most Canadians prefer higher quality, more expensive Canadian products, stuff made in Canada should still have a strong market and would still be able to make money, isn't that right? For example, Iphone is a lot more expensive than some cheap mobile phone made in China, but that didn't prevent Iphones to sell better than anyone else, did it?

In sum, if Canadians don't like cheap products from China, they may choose to buy high quality products. It makes no sense to complain the sheer availability of Chinese products that some other people will choose to buy. Go to Harry Rosen, there are expensive socks not made in China I am sure.

And if Chinese cheap labour takes away Canadian manufacture jobs, that only means the market has determined that the quality of Canadian made products are not high enough to justify its much higher price, what is complain here? Go back to the drawing board and made superior products that make consumers think worth their price, like Apple does. If you can't do that, that means you are a loser in the market. And true, losers always complain.

Is that why you are constantly complaining or whining about something? (usually on a daily basis) You know what they say about people in glass houses.

 

[Tuscani01]

Fair enough, but if you get to know the companies/outfits that are supplying you it is easier to make informed choices. When I buy from a local store where I know the owner I can discuss these matters. This is impossible when it's coming from China. I know you can't do this for everything but you'd be surprised how much more is available now if you take the time to look.

We do get to know our suppliers quite well. The relationships are extremely important to us so there is a lot of communication between us and the vendor. We have offices in Shanghai, Hong Kong and Guangdong with full time staff that work on our sourcing and vendor relationships, and the staff at those offices work with staff based here in Toronto so we know everything that is going on there.

We look within North America before we move out overseas for products, but unfortunately it is way more difficult than you think. Vendors need to meet a lot of requirements such as turnaround time, cost, quality, minimum order quantities, production capabilities etc. and many North American companies just can't meet our requirements. One example of a product that we have no choice but to bring in from overseas are compact fluorescent light bulbs. There is not one single vendor in Canada that we can source from.

 

[RichA]

It really all comes down to cost of production

One example of a product that we have no choice but to bring in from overseas are compact fluorescent light bulbs. There is not one single vendor in Canada that we can source from.

Yes, there must be laws here about producing lights with excessive UV output and mercury in them.

 

[Tewder]

The rise of China is a godsend to corporate America, unfortunately... and this is definitely not progress!

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/apples_china_comes_home_to_haunt_us_20120216/