Palma
Senior Member
What does this mean?
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What does this mean?
Palma
Senior Member
Bathurst only has some h rises north of Wilson. Go south, all the way to Bloor and what do you see? Houses and 2 or 3 level apartments/houses. Dufferin does have houses fronting it but as you reach Dufferin, development is starting with the massive, ugly Treviso condos at Lawrence and Dufferin, another condo further north near Yorkdale on the west entrance, another major high rise proposed development at Apex Rd and Dufferin and another across from it at the present Ford dealership.
Yet on Lawrence they are building townhouses and further along Lawrence between Bathurst and Ynnge, single detached houses. Go figure
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
It means that price can escalate by up to another 30% to a price of $4.1 Billion
salsa
Senior Member
Not true. Bathurst is lined with highrise and midrise buildings as far south as Eglinton at the very least. Further south lowrise is more dominant, but there are a few more clusters of buildings such as St Clair & Bathurst.
coffey1
Active Member
Were they there when the subway was built? STC is more deserving than most stops today
pman
Senior Member
As Steve Munro has noted, the Scarborough subway certainly isn't "deserving" based on forecast ridership. Coffey1, I honestly don't hate Scarborough or look down on its residents, but I am trying to understand the logical justification for spending so much of our limited capital budget on this project. You are obviously a passionate advocate for the Scarborough subway and a vigilant, high frequency rebutter of anyone who questions it here. Can you succinctly tell us why this is a good project in spite of its abysmally low ridership forecast? I think your argument is that equity demands a subway line in each of the former boroughs (Warden doesn't cut it and I guess East York just doesn't count). By extension, it appears that equity does not mean that we should allocate our scarce investment to get the maximum incremental ridership per dollar spent. But I'm starting to put words in your mouth, which is wrong. So, what's the rational and logical case?
sixrings
Senior Member
As a former scarborough resident I believe the dream is if the subway made it to STC then it would all of a sudden become a place people would consider living which would create development which would create change. To be fair I do believe that as far behind as VCC is that it will eventually catch up to MCC in 20 years simply because it has a direct subway to downtown where MCC doesn't even have a GO Train. That being said VCC has a long subway ride but one without transfers. STC would still require a transfer at St George and or Yonge Bloor. I will say that I believe that a lot of future development will be based on what developers can easily get their hands on which is also close to transit. A sea of parking lots is easier to acquire than a bunch of houses that need to all be bought out before a condo can be built. Because I think development is changing to centres and transit oriented communities, although STC hasn't historically been a great destination, it could be one in the future. I just don't think its worth the risk when we need finances for a DRL right NOW! Also a LRT network in scarbrough would have done me a world of good when I lived there so I cant argue against a LRT plan which covers much more area.
coffey1
Active Member
The nonsese is both on Sheppard with the stubway going to LRT in the same direction. it pure disrespect. Now that its Scarborough being discussed it a non starter. Steve Munro is a knowledgeable guy that has STRONG bias and personal benefit from the DRL and is by no means focuses on the future of Scarborough aside from saving money for the DRL.
Its about integration. and that's never considered in the plans coming from the transit rich Politicians.
1. Sheppard stubway should be changed to LRT entirely so it can be extended both ways in one seamless connection. is there a cost? yes? Is it fair and convenient for all Torontonians.? YES I can see the LRT to the stub if Scarborough connect the full LRT loop. There a COMPROMISE
2. The SLRT goes thru a horrible industrial route as the current RT (Mr. Munro assisted in the design I believe. We know how this worked). The transfer is horrible for optics and to have any chance of creating any use for STC. Shut down the SRT build a surface subway along this route to atleast alleviate the transfer and add the extra stops if money is available. There another COMPRIMISE.
Crying foul and offering no solutions to seamlessly connect into the infrastructure of the current network is a joke & is the footprint well leave on Scarborough. if we have to build a 3bil subway because we didn't want a segregated network.... That may be the case. But don't tell me Scarborough was provided any other options.
Its segregated City vs. and Expensive subway stub. I don't like either. But I get that everyone that wont sue it wants the cheapest. Especially those drooling to snatch funding for the DRL
sixrings
Senior Member
But there is an idea that by making a LRT in Scarborough, the Elites (apparently the rest of the entire city), are treating Scarborough like a third world county. Mississauga is getting LRT and I do not necessarily think of poor people when I think of Mississauga. Nor do I when I think of Calgary or Ottawa. Yet somehow the narrative has become the rich vs the poor, which to some, equate subways vs LRT. What most of us are arguing is that we should be building based on ridership because everyone knows there is no money tree. It is unfortunate they did not build a subway to STC when they built the RT. That I can agree with. However we cannot change the past. It is also unfortunate that we could have built Sheppard as a LRT to begin with so we would not have to have this transfer. Again we cannot change the past. I was hoping that a DRL going to Sheppard would mean that less people would have to experience this unfortunate transfer. Although the more money we spend on this STC subway the less money we have to make a proper DRL which would have numbers to justify it.
coffey1
Active Member
Ill filter thru your trolling narrative.
Please You cant compare a City which has been HEAVILY invested in with infrastructure of many forms to one that has been NEGLECTED thoroughly. That's transit alone. There much more Sauga does to keep moving its Burb into the future & Toronto does little.
LRT is great if that's what we are connected to in one direction. Is Mississauga's LRT similar to SLRT? For one the are not part of the TTC which is OUR network and should be connect fairy. The Eglinton LRT is wonderful but that not all we need.
How many more highways does Mississauga have compared to Scarboorugh to attract business? We stop building those so we better get amazing Public transit to help this areas
Does their proposed LRT & BRT force then to transfer off in the same direction? No transfers in the same direction
Please cut the crap with the Elite BS and LRT vs. Subway nonsense. Its about design and connectivity to what exists that is that whats missing in these plans. Not a simple LRT vs subway approach.
Your transit rich areas have a lot of money around it and is Politically "elite" That's it. People like you. Likely not. Quit trying to stir something outta nothing to make a point
sixrings
Senior Member
I will admit I am too lazy but I believe it was you which started this narrative in this thread. You keep playing the poor Scarborough card and the idea that the elite are saving the good transit for themselves.
Lets name some places which do not have Subways in the city. Rexdale, Humber Bay. Mimico. Eglinton West. All of these areas though have LRT planned for them. Yes downtown has more subways. They also have more people to use the system. It is pretty much as simple as that. The trade off of living in the suburbs is less people and more space for the same dollar. It simply is next to impossible to have it both ways.
BTW I find it ironic that the troll is now calling those who are using numbers to determine what types of transit should go places as trolls.
coffey1
Active Member
You don't have to agree. But it not right to twist, exaggerate or make things up to make a point.
Please let me know where I said any of the crap you infer. If anything I explained what was meant by "elitist" if you actually read, but you don't like my point of view so you start making stuff to try to look good.
I have taken shots at the Elite media & its blind followers who believe the narrative, or just keep spewing false facts about Scarborough here. Otherwise I try just to explain what the issue is and give my opinion on how it can be solved.
Its OK you don't agree with how to connect STC and your numbers don't tell the whole picture. If we used numbers alone Toronto would never be what it is today. For the record AGAIN since you may have missed I actually like LRT as a technology where its used properly like on Eglinton.
Also your numbering system for Scarborough Center wasn't used in the building of transit else in the City & quite frankly the transfer LRT will ensure STC stays what it is today and I firmly believe it will do REALLY well as a seamless connection to the main artery in OUR network.
Thanks
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minilude
Active Member
Is it possible to build some kinds of railway so there could be a Stouffville line branch that go through STC, Centennial and UTSC after passing Lawrence Station. Just like the UP express on Kitchner line.
sixrings
Senior Member
Coffey1 I went back to page 500 to read your posts to see if I was wrong. I stand corrected. You do blame most of Scarboroughs woes on either politics or "Elite" media. So I apologise. That being said I do not like being described as a "blind follower." In fact the Toronto Star has flip flopped on the issue multiple times. When Miller was in power Royson James was bashing him for not building subways. Then we got Ford and James started talking about how Subways were a financial waste. In fact I cancelled my subscription since all I was interested in reading was Christopher Hume. There is an assumption here that people are not thinking for themselves. However people like Steve Munro, who despite his bias which you want to keep bringing up, has no horse in the race. He only wants what is best for the entire city. Between impartial writers like Steve and the stats we can make up our own minds. I am sure many would like to build a Subway to Scarborough just as a peace offering but it simply doesn't make financial sense from a ridership perspective. I am sorry for your transit position in Scarborough.
pstogios
Senior Member
This thread has turned into the coffey1 show. He is dominating this discussion when clearly he shouldn't be, because his perspective reflects utterly and completely everything that is screwed up about the Scarborough transit debate.
FULL STOP
This discussion should start and end with that consideration. Our most successful subway lines originated as clearly well-established routes with ridership that outstripped the route's capacity; Yonge used to be a busy streetcar line.
If there is no established ridership on a bus or streetcar route that isn't sufficient anymore... no subway.
That's the calculus we should be applying for Scarborough.
Everything else is just bullshit and should be called out for what it is.
Coffey1, you're up.
FULL STOP
This discussion should start and end with that consideration. Our most successful subway lines originated as clearly well-established routes with ridership that outstripped the route's capacity; Yonge used to be a busy streetcar line.
If there is no established ridership on a bus or streetcar route that isn't sufficient anymore... no subway.
That's the calculus we should be applying for Scarborough.
Everything else is just bullshit and should be called out for what it is.
Coffey1, you're up.