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It is literally impossible to expand the turning radius of the tracks, there is not enough room in the intersections. This wasn't even the main issue, Siemens placed a compliant bid and Skoda has a 100% low floor car with steerable trucks.
AIUI, it was extraordinary requirements for accessibility that sank the competitors.
 

Changing the track geometry will, in many cases, require changing the layout of the routes which would be a political football even if it was significantly cheaper.

I think forever, where forever is defined as containing the careers of most current residents, is probably a reasonable assumption.

That said, as LRT components get smaller it'll probably be less of an issue in the next order. All companies will have 30+ years of experience building odd-ball low-floor designs and will likely have a more flexible standard vehicle available in 2045.
 
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4425 is doing its first run as I type this. It just left the barns.
 
Changing the track geometry will, in many cases, require changing the layout of the routes which would be a political football even if it was significantly cheaper.

I think forever, where forever is defined as containing the careers of most current residents, is probably a reasonable assumption.

That said, as LRT components get smaller it'll probably be less of an issue in the next order. All companies will have 30+ years of experience building odd-ball low-floor designs and will likely have a more flexible standard vehicle available in 2045.
Any of the 8 main builders could build TTC cars 5-10 years ago, but it was the Province of Ontario stopping them by saying the work had to go to Thunder Bay. Even the Chair of TTC back in 2005 wouldn't allow cars to be built elsewhere, other than Thunder Bay.

There are very few intersections where radius could be increase easy, but still have the rest of the system to deal with and that not going to change any decade soon. The loops are a major issues and one reasons they need to go and be replace with stub track. That only can happen with duel end cars.
 

Some interesting statistics in that announcement. TTC's order is 200+ cars firm, versus 40 cars firm and an option of 60 over a decade. TTC and ML represent about 400 cars out of total sales of around 3500 units.

You would think that makes Ontario a big customer, but in fact that's 10% of production taking place in an alternate supply/production channel. Note that the release makes no statement as to where the cars are manufactured.

Perhaps things would have gone much better if the TTC order had been produced in their European facilities. Mexico/Canada is a sideshow - a small fraction of Bombardier Transportation's 39,400 employees.

- Paul
 
The very first Toronto subway train cars were manufactured in Great Britain. Then, manufacturers here in Canada started manufacturing them.

ttc%205030%20Eglington.jpg


Maybe Bombardier should have first got their Outlooks manufactured in Germany, until the manufacturing plant in Thunder Bay had gotten the experience needed.
 
Maybe Bombardier should have first got their Outlooks manufactured in Germany, until the manufacturing plant in Thunder Bay had gotten the experience needed.

Not defending the shambolic nature of the deliveries...but under that scenario...how would they have got the experience they needed if the cars were built elsewhere?
 
Not defending the shambolic nature of the deliveries...but under that scenario...how would they have got the experience they needed if the cars were built elsewhere?

I am totally speculating here, but ..... one wonders if it was just too hard to achieve three-way information and knowledge transfer between three centers - Germany, Mexico, and Thunder Bay.... language differences, perhaps communication differences, perhaps different technology platforms, perhaps plant management culture especially on how Quality Control is managed and how it fits in the production organization, perhaps time and availability and willingness to travel to address issues first hand. Not to mention logistics.

Many excellent global organizations have no difficulty doing this, it's a core competency for selling things worldwide. One wonders if this particular global integration was a Bridge Too Far for Bombardier. It might have been easier to manage a two-way interface between Germany and Canada units....although the same risks exist even there.

A "what if" - but an interesting one, especially if anyone is looking for a topic for an MBA thesis.

- Paul
 
I am totally speculating here, but ..... one wonders if it was just too hard to achieve three-way information and knowledge transfer between three centers - Germany, Mexico, and Thunder Bay.... language differences, perhaps communication differences, perhaps different technology platforms, perhaps plant management culture especially on how Quality Control is managed and how it fits in the production organization, perhaps time and availability and willingness to travel to address issues first hand. Not to mention logistics.

Many excellent global organizations have no difficulty doing this, it's a core competency for selling things worldwide. One wonders if this particular global integration was a Bridge Too Far for Bombardier. It might have been easier to manage a two-way interface between Germany and Canada units....although the same risks exist even there.

A "what if" - but an interesting one, especially if anyone is looking for a topic for an MBA thesis.

- Paul
business gobblygook terms aside ( :) )...my question was much simpler...it was suggested that Toronto's cars should have been built in Gemany until TB had the experience to build them....experience is gained by doing....so if they were not doing...how would they gain the experience?
 
Bombardier should have had BOTH Germany and Canada building them. Forcing the Canadian plant to. at least try to, match the output and quality of the German plant.
 
business gobblygook terms aside ( :) )...my question was much simpler...it was suggested that Toronto's cars should have been built in Gemany until TB had the experience to build them....experience is gained by doing....so if they were not doing...how would they gain the experience?

Sorry if the gobbledygook got in the way.

The short answer - The Germans have the know-how, so they are the trainers, and the Canadians are the trainees. Clasrooms, exchange visits, conference calls, site visits, skype meetings, management meetings, hands-on practice under German supervision first in Germany and then at T Bay - to see that the Canadians are trained, capable, following the plans, and can access the experts to solve problems as they arise.

It's challenging enough to do this between two countries on different continents, with two languages and cultures at work. But cutting it down from three to two is an exponential improvement.

The gobbledygook does all matter, actually. I don't know which of these words fits Bombardier's disfunction, but it's likely at least some of them.

Paul
 
Something to consider is that the TTC would've had to pay an extra 8% (customs tariffs for streetcars and LRT vehicles) if they were built in Germany.
 

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