[TransitBart]

Since I published a post on data, a number of participants here have batted about that conversation. Rather than pick through those responses, I am going to post this.

I find some of what was posted concerning. There is the note from @crs1026 which says that college students can produce "reasonably good" quality data at less cost than hard-core analysis of the mountains that come form counting taps.

I am going to assume that everyone here is contributing to this discussion because of a passion to see improvements in the city's and region's transit infrastructure.

This next sentence will offend a few around here, but it is true. Let's consider the TTC as a business for a moment. It is, although it is not a for-profit business. Even not-for-profit businesses (like Goodwill Industries) need to worry about revenue and expense. So does the TTC. Unlike other private-sector businesses, the TTC has less control over what it charges for its product (revenues).

The TTC is a (somewhat) sick business. To name two problems, tt needs more revenue, and its expenses are rising faster than the revenues it has. Let alone that it does not generate the capital required to invest for the next generation of needs. (Separate topic that last point.)

Now let's look at stories from the past year. I have read of endless debates about missing fare revenue. Is the economy weak? Are riders taking advantage of POP? Are we losing revenue due to out-of-service PRESTO readers? Are Metropass riders taking more rides? Two-hour timed transfer? Current old-fashioned baloney transfer?

In the private sector, and a great many other public institutions, if the business could not analyze properly why the revenues were shrinking, or behaving why they were, the management and maybe the board would be sacked.

Simply put, the TTC is a $1.2 billion business. To provide better service, a business needs to plan. To plan, it requires certainty of revenue and the data to support the planning. This business is too large to run with "airey-fairey" numbers. It is disappointing in the extreme to know that the data do not exist to understand precisely what is happening with the TTC fare revenue.

it is more disappointing to hear any TTC management commentary at all that "what got us here is good enough" so we'll keep doing that. I don't believe that the TTC has the data required to run the service properly.

 

[steveintoronto]

Since I published a post on data, a number of participants here have batted about that conversation. Rather than pick through those responses, I am going to post this
I find some of what was posted concerning. There is the note from @crs1026 which says that college students can produce "reasonably good" quality data at less cost than hard-core analysis of the mountains that come form counting taps.[...]

Agree with the *gist* of what you post, and it's impassioned and cathartic, it's the nub of the need for further discussion, but to put context to to 1026' remarks, if I read them correctly, he's concerned about *identifiable* stats being collected without real need. Even the national Census is facing this issue.

There's a magnitude difference between 'headcounts' and 'actual identifiable individuals' for privacy, and nearly none to running an efficient corporation/agency.

Headcounts? Absolutely, that must be known. But not identities. To be continued...I want to see how others respond to this.

 

[TransitBart]

Agree with the *gist* of what you post, and it's impassioned and cathartic, it's the nub of the need for further discussion, but to put context to to 1026' remarks, if I read them correctly, he's concerned about *identifiable* stats being collected without real need. Even the national Census is facing this issue.

There's a magnitude difference between 'headcounts' and 'actual identifiable individuals' for privacy, and nearly none to running an efficient corporation/agency.

Headcounts? Absolutely, that must be known. But not identities. To be continued...I want to see how others respond to this.

We are clearly talking about counting 'taps' not names.

(Separately-I can relate my experience as a 'chosen' participant (victim) in the MTO's transportation survey in December. They asked about every trip I took on a certain day; times, addresses of start and destinaton, the mode and who was with me. I was a bit shocked, actually.)

 

[TOareaFan]

They charged me $17.20 which is the cost of a trip from Union Station to Kitchener bus terminal.

That is truly bizarre....charging you the max fare possible to get to a station that the train you tapped onto could not possibly have taken you to? I would have thought that the charge would have been to either Aldershot or Hamilton...but a missed tap off on the LSW line should not have KW in the equation at all.

 

[steveintoronto]

We are clearly talking about counting 'taps' not names.

OK, we are in full agreement on that. It's a point we have to watch closely, as many other facets of our lives are recorded with personal identifiers. I have to question though....your identity *is* being tabulated on that tap if you have Presto! So Paul's point resonates...

(Separately-I can relate my experience as a 'chosen' participant (victim) in the MTO's transportation survey in December. They asked about every trip I took on a certain day; times, addresses of start and destinaton, the mode and who was with me. I was a bit shocked, actually.)

Serendipity that you should mention that! I was just looking through my saved records and mail to see what my rent would be this month (I just went to pay it, but the office is closed until tomorrow) as I got notice of a rent reduction from the City due to decreased taxes. And lo and behold, there was the MTO survey that I'd forgotten about. "You have been chosen to yada, yada, yada.."

I felt a pang of guilt not doing my duty as a dutiful citizen, but now you mention what you have....it was apt that I didn't answer it.

 

[Megaton327]

So I forgot to tap off the GO Train on Christmas Day going to Port Credit from Union Station. What is my chances of getting refunded the cost they charged me for a full trip to Kitchener?

They charged me $17.20 which is the cost of a trip from Union Station to Kitchener bus terminal.

That is truly bizarre....charging you the max fare possible to get to a station that the train you tapped onto could not possibly have taken you to? I would have thought that the charge would have been to either Aldershot or Hamilton...but a missed tap off on the LSW line should not have KW in the equation at all.

When one gets on at Union, they can board any train line including KW--passengers are not required to tap on certain devices for travel on certain lines. As such, when you tap on at Union and miss your tap-off, they charge you to Kitchener being the most expensive possible trip in regular service. This is clearly posted on GO's website.

EDIT: just saw this had been on Christmas Day with no Kitchener trains running. I guess the Presto system isn't programmed to change the missed tap-off based on date. However, I'm sure that for missed tap-offs on weekends/holidays GO/Presto would refund that missed tap-off fee from Kitchener down to Allandale Waterfront (now the most expensive weekend train trip). @khristopher said they received a partial refund, at any rate.

Similarly, Niagara Falls could be made the missed tap-off fare on the days when that train service runs in the summer, being a bit more than Kitchener, but that does not happen as far as I know.

 

[steveintoronto]

Hadn't that person tapped on at Union for a trip on LSW? At union, there are not different fare devices for each train line, if you tap on at union they have no way of knowing which line you board, so the missed tap-off at union is to Kitchener. This is clearly posted on GO's website.

So I forgot to tap off the GO Train on Christmas Day going to Port Credit from Union Station. What is my chances of getting refunded the cost they charged me for a full trip to Kitchener?

There were no trains to Kitchener that day.

 

[TransitBart]

OK, we are in full agreement on that. It's a point we have to watch closely, as many other facets of our lives are recorded with personal identifiers. I have to question though....your identity *is* being tabulated on that tap if you have Presto! So Paul's point resonates...

We are talking about (I think) recording a tap, for example, at 0745 AM on an Eastbound Renforth 48 bus. (@tiger - if we don't know where the bus is, OK. It's eastbound at 0745h.) And then recording the next tap at 0840 AM at Yonge and King on a 504 headed east. We can reasonably conclude that the person is going to work, on peak, that they traveled to minimize time so they rode the 48 bus to its eastern terminus at Royal York Station and then traveled east on Line 2 to St George or Yonge, and headed south to King. Then they headed east to say, Geroge Brown College. They aren't going back to Broadview anyway.

Wouldn't it be excellent to measure the changing travel patterns (taps) as we complete portions of the network (as opposed to radial arms) like Line 5 and start to measure if the new best way to Yonge and Eglinton from Kennedy is along Line 2 and up Line 1 or straight along Line 5?

Secondly, since each PRESTO card will have an issue date, we can measure whether the ride is "new" (converted from other modes - probably car) or not. If the PRESTO card existed with a METROPASS fare option before the opening, then the trip is "old". If it's a new PRESTO card and the METROPASS is purchased say ten of the subsequent months out of twelve, then we have "converted" someone.

I am appalled by some of the drivel that is produced in some of the public reporting.

 

[DSC]

I am appalled by some of the drivel that is produced in some of the public reporting.

There is a fair amount of drivel posted here too :->

 

[steveintoronto]

We are talking about (I think) recording a tap,

Think about that. How does it appear on your Presto record available on-line? Because it is *PERSONAL* information!

Now steps could be taken to de-personalize that info, other areas of governance are required to do that. But for some odd reason, that often fails to happen. Take phone records, for instance.

Make no mistake, the choice is ours whether we use that card or not....oh, wait a minute, the TTC just decided otherwise...the same TTC that's going to require Photo Presto Cards. And their carte-blanche collection of your travel details is not a cause for concern...*especially* when some of it will be needless in terms of the intended purpose of that card?

In the event, my take of the Ontario Photo Card Act is that it is illegal.

Addendum: And it's far from just being abusive partners that's the concern:

Vancouver transit's Compass card system poses privacy concerns
By
Alyse Kotyk
| February 18, 2016

Translink has given users many incentives for registering their card online -- a process which involves creating an account with their name, address and contact information. By doing so, a Compass card holder can set up an automatic reload system, pay online and protect their balance.

But registering a Compass card offers one more feature: tracking complete details of exact locations and times of transit use, down to the minute, which advocates for women's safety say could be very dangerous within an abusive relationship.

"The system contains detailed information about where people are when they tap in and when they tap out," says Battered Women's Support Services (BWSS) Executive Director Angela Marie MacDougall. "That is a concern for anybody as far as the ability to surveil and with privacy."

Translink has explained in its informational video series that this feature allows users to "see how much you've traveled."

However, MacDougall points out that in the hands of an abuser within an abusive relationship, this feature could also become a dangerous tool.

"It raises particular concerns for women in abusive relationships because of the nature of an abusive relationship around issues of power and control," she says. "Abusive partners will use a tactic of isolation which is in fact to keep track of where a woman is, where she goes, who she sees, what she does."

When asked to comment on the safety concern, Translink Media Relations Manager, Cheryl Ziola sent an email to rabble with an outline of Compass' privacy statement, highlighting the need to actually register a card with a password before someone can get access to this information.

When pressed for comment specifically in the case of abusive relationships Ziola said that "any customer concerned about providing any personal information has the option of paying cash for a Compass Ticket."

Compass isn't the only transit payment system of this kind in Canada and, in fact, MacDougall points out that the PRESTO payment system, which currently operates in the Greater Toronto, Hamilton and Ottawa areas holds some of the same privacy concerns.

Kim Johnson, Media Relations for Metrolinx which runs PRESTO, explained to rabble by email that -- similar to Compass -- when users purchase a transit card they can choose to keep it anonymous or register it. Once registered, a PRESTO card identifies and tracks where a card was tapped on and tapped off of transit.

"Registered cardholders establish a unique username and password to access their online account to view their transaction history for the past three months of travel," she said.

Unfortunately, MacDougall points out that within relationships where power is severely imbalanced, an Internet password isn't necessarily a prohibitive measure.

"Not all women in an abusive relationship would be able to keep that information from an abusive partner," she says. "As with all passwords for women in an abusive relationship, they may not be able to keep that from their abusive partner and it poses particular concerns in terms of providing another tool for an abusive partner to maintain power and control over a woman in that relationship."

Moving forward, BWSS is working on a report on these issues that they will present to Translink in the near future.

"We would like to see Translink take issues of violence against women seriously," says MacDougall. "There's many problems with the Compass system and this is just another one."

http://rabble.ca/news/2016/02/vancouver-transits-compass-card-system-poses-privacy-concerns

Now add a "Photo Presto Card" to the mix, and that especially highlighting children. C'mon, doesn't that evoke even the smallest concern on your behalf?

 

[TransitBart]

There is a fair amount of drivel posted here too :->

Agreed.

 

[TransitBart]

Now add a "Photo Presto Card" to the mix, and that especially highlighting children. C'mon, doesn't that evoke even the smallest concern on your behalf?

No. Not the slightest. Presuming that the government is well-run which is another quite separate issue.

There will always be misguided people who are dreaming up new ways to game, con and take advantage of the system. And on the other side, there will be people thinking up new ways to prevent such occurances.

If you think about it, social media has more information on you than you care to consider. Most people are OK with that.

The price of many improvements in society is probably accepting that a great deal of data will be collected. I am OK with that too.

 

[crs1026]

In the private sector, and a great many other public institutions, if the business could not analyze properly why the revenues were shrinking, or behaving why they were, the management and maybe the board would be sacked.

Simply put, the TTC is a $1.2 billion business. To provide better service, a business needs to plan. To plan, it requires certainty of revenue and the data to support the planning. This business is too large to run with "airey-fairey" numbers. It is disappointing in the extreme to know that the data do not exist to understand precisely what is happening with the TTC fare revenue.

it is more disappointing to hear any TTC management commentary at all that "what got us here is good enough" so we'll keep doing that. I don't believe that the TTC has the data required to run the service properly.

I would not want my quote attributed to "TTC management" specifically, although the person who made the comment is highly knowledgeable in TTC's practice as well as other operators'. Nor did I mean to imply that they are not eager to have better tools.

One of the basic rules of business common sense around data is, understand the precision and functionality that you require, and don't buy more than you need. A second time-worn rule is - people who want data on everything don't know what questions are important.

My comment was that being driven to a tap-on tap-off format for each leg of a trip, simply to deliver better data, is putting the desires of the bureaucracy ahead of the customer. Especially when I hear people who work for transit tell me that they don't need a tool of that precision, and are sensitive to its huge cost. Not to single out TTC - but - would better Presto data fix 501? Would better Presto data convince Mr Tory not to impose the 2.6% cutbacks? Is this data essential to demonstrating the urgency of DRL?

I rode the TTC yesterday and once again Presto gave me a wonky free transfer, and then took it back later where I figured I should have been able to transfer. The most businesslike thing for TTC to do is get Presto to calculate fares correctly, using a simple and consistent set of decision rules that are not expensive to program. And drive the overhead cost of fare collection downwards.

Fare enforcement is a risk/reward proposition. Deterrence is never 100% effective. Weigh the inconvenience of all that extra tapping - in an environment where readers aren't working reliably yet - against the amount of evasion deterred.

To address Steve's issue of privacy - we do have solid laws around this. I'm confident that if some inappropriate use of passenger data arose, it would be dealt with appropriately by our courts.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

Amazing that so many commenters forget that the TTC (and GO) get most of their revenue from the farebox than any other transit agency in North America. See link.

 

[steveintoronto]

To address Steve's issue of privacy - we do have solid laws around this. I'm confident that if some inappropriate use of passenger data arose, it would be dealt with appropriately by our courts.

I suspect Metrolinx themselves have discussed this, and their legal counsel have advised not just on the liability of it, but on the moral hazard of 'going too far' in terms of dictating social compliance. It's curious that the only mention of "Presto Photo Cards" is by the TTC, not Metrolinx themselves.

Perhaps Metrolinx management are now very sensitized to the litany of problems that have resulted from asking a limited algorithm program(s) to perform past its reasonable limits, and with that limitation also comes the propensity to to be hacked, or otherwise inadvertently divulge personal information that shouldn't be. Perhaps en mass.

Let me ask people this (albeit the analogy is not fully linear): How many credit, debit or other financial transaction cards have photo ID on them? Think about it! Again, the Photo Card Act allows *voluntarily* producing a government photo ID that meets legal requirements to buttress ones claim. It makes clear that it must only be voluntary, not mandatory.

If you think about it, social media has more information on you than you care to consider. Most people are OK with that.

Most people are completely unaware. Most people can't even tell the difference between real and fake news, or even question the authenticity.

I'm still boggled at how most have no idea that they can be tracked with their cell-phones, and that info overlayed onto other data, like Presto tap-ons and off to precisely know where you are, where you've been, and where you're most likely to go. In the UK now, most of that is sussed by your picture on video alone by facial recognition.

Hey, what's on television?

Amazing that so many commenters forget that the TTC (and GO) get most of their revenue from the farebox than any other transit agency in North America. See link.

"Farebox Return" yes, for operating budget, albeit how that is calculated is arbitrary in many cases. Certainly Toronto is extremely stingy when it comes to investing in transit. (In all fairness, the Feds and Queen's Park don't help like they do in most other developed nations, and Ontario used to help more, but now don't). There's also a resentment and mean streak in 'Toronto the Good' that wasn't there so much in decades past. Many US cities embrace forward thinking, even Repbublican governed ones.

It's certainly pushed the TTC into making rash decisions like considering Presto Photo Cards and similar when the obvious solution, as agreed by most everyone, is just time based transfers. Penny wise, and Pound stupid. Toronto used to be regarded as the leader of North Am in terms of transit decades back. The timetables have turned.