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What's your opinion of 1 St. Thomas?


  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .
For the jillionth time, so freaking what if it isn't "progressive", neither is the old Bank of Canada at 250 Uni vs Sun Life at 200 Uni, neither is the ghost-of-John-Lyle's Scotia at Bay + King vs Mies, yet that doesn't render them any less cherishable, and if you try arguing otherwise I'll give you SUCH a PINCH...

And for the zillionith time we are talking about present and future structures - you already know what my position is on past structures, and I am tired of repeating it.

If anything I have been consistent, because I didn't come to any of these basic positions just yesterday, or even before coming to this website. They were thought out and examined and applied over a number of years. We can have differences of opinion. My problem is that if I adopt some of these methods I am seeing here of evaluating a building I would never need to know anything about what I am looking at - just react and that is enough.

Well it is not enough for me.
 
This building looks great and the attention to detail is admirable. I just wish it was ten floors taller so it could compete better with Manulife when viewed from the west.

My thoughts on the general theme of this thread: variety in a skyline is good, regardless of era. In fifty years all of these buildings will be old and the intellectual posturing will be irrelevant.
 
And for the zillionith time we are talking about present structures - you already know what my position is on past structures, and I am tired of repeating it.

Big freaking deal. Start becoming pluralist about the present. Especially as the present is gonna be the past someday.
 
If you don't want to discuss a difference of opinion, like intelligent adults, that is fine with me. But I will not be influenced by histrionics and typescript size.
 
"So that is your criteria - it looks good and it is well done. So that thrusts us back into the visceral arena for making any assessment about Architecture. "

We should be so lucky as to have buildings meet a standard in the "visceral arena", as opposed to the intellectual one.

Exactly. 1 St. Thomas is comfort architecture, only designed by a starchitect. Can gourmet comfort architecture be so good as to transcend its comfort label and become gourmet architecture? Maybe, maybe not. Even if that didn't happen with 1 St. Thomas, we're still left with some tasty comfort architecture at the end of the day.
 
If anything I have been consistent, because I didn't come to any of these basic positions just yesterday, or even before coming to this website. They were thought out and examined and applied over a number of years. We can have differences of opinion. My problem is that if I adopt some of these methods I am seeing here of evaluating a building I would never need to know anything about what I am looking at - just react and that is enough.

Well it is not enough for me.


Some of us here are not trained architects or academics, and we approach a building as we might a piece of art, which is to say with a visceral response. You seem to imply that this approach is somehow categorically wrong or inferior, and that we should only be relying on objective analysis to reach an informed (read 'your') opinion. This is simply not fair. Your approach is valid, but so are others.


And by the way, I am NOT a defender of Clewes or Mies, address that to someone else. I think it is time to look at the differing tones of those that do not think this represents good Architecture. I do support Modernism in general but I take a critical path toward all Architecture regardless of style. I am not a follower - never was, never will be.


It wouldn't matter if it were Stern, Graves, or any of a number of others that generate this type of Architecture. If they would have dropped the Post-Modern and Modern Traditional label and ideas, and done a strict Revivalism of one sort or another, it would have been an improvement, but it still would be non-progressive Architecture.


You dismiss Stern because he was inspired by the architectural vocabulary of a previous era, yet 'support' modernism as progressive architecture. This is a contradiction. The expression of modernism in architecture today is in itself a nostalgia for the aesthetics of a previous generation, and is no more progressive than Stern's nostalgia for deco. And so this is where your learned opinion falls down: your preference for modernism over deco is in fact a visceral one, no matter how informed or objective you claim it to be.
 
How anyone can draw anything viscerally satisfying from this tired pastiche is beyond me. What sort of values are you people connected to? None that are contemporary, since bloated, pretentious rubbish like this is constantly shut out when merit is celebrated by professional bodies that represent the design community. If this building did something new with deco I'd be the first to applaud, but it doesn't. It's just another retread from Stern's Sears Catalogue of styles. Quality-finishes wraiths and victims of nostalgia-marketing may adore this thing, but so what?
 
What's next? AndreaPalladio to follow up with an even more dismissive post than the one above?
 
Ah, the old "'professional bodies that represent the design community' know best, and everyone else is stupid and has no taste" argument.
 
There are eyes, and then there are educated eyes.

Actually, I think the problem with supporters of 1 St. Thomas is they have too much "good taste".
 
There are eyes, and then there are educated eyes.

That is very true and I do now want to dismiss the skills and knowledge of those professionally trained and educated. Art though, and the appreciation of such, can be very subjective and there is little need (in fact, none) to dismiss the fondness for this building.

One (but just one) of the many reasons for 'art' is to produce a 'visceral' reaction. If this happens to produce a reaction of pleasure by many, all the power to it. If a building (art) produces nothing more than a proper intellectual rationalization for itself, and most everybody hates it (Grad House at U of T?), then that too is a success, but again, only on one level. Very few pieces of art (buildings) can be considered both a visceral and 'intellectual' success (Gehry seems to often pull this off).

I am willing to give a building credit when it can pull off success in one arena or another (but I will not necessarily love it....see Grad House again). I am willing to truly celebrate a building when it pulls off success on many levels, but those are few buildings.

I will certainly not easily dismiss a building if it only pulls off success on one level.
 
Much Ado ...

SeanTrans - regarding your last post, I will be more generic - past is always prologue on this thread. If it ever varies it would be a revelation.

I have spent time reviewing most of this thread into the early morning, especially the latter half, and I think I can honestly say that the so-called 'Modernist crowd' has not started any of these several merry-go-round shouting matches. If you do not believe me, bring counter-evidence. We have all escalated and repeated ourselves ad nausea. So I don't want to hear one group say that only the other side has done this.

The latest starter, as it often does, comes from pictures by the "Stern crowd" (has a nice ring to it). In this case it was casaguy. No offence casaguy, but I am going to quote two of your past posts to avoid any mis-interpretation and move on to the next item:

I'm so in love with this building it's not funny.

Stirring up the pot is a good thing... now I'm kicking myself for not taking more pics today of this beautiful addition to our skyline.

I will again re-quote what I said before, maybe this will be a trend, re-arguing the same points with the same posts because memory seems to fail us here on a regular basis:

Post #491 11-01-2007


The critical eye will weigh down equally on all styles, and be fair if properly utilised. The inherent difficulty in this approach is that one must step back and evaluate, not just react to a building. Sometimes when we come face to face with our initial reaction versus studied evaluation, we can still be in sync, but it can also go in reverse, all part of the process. It is the same process we learn with art, some will just depend on their first reaction and never change for the rest of their life. Others will discover and/or learn that the approach must be beyond the initial reaction to be of any real value. That latter is a byproduct of maturation, in my opinion.

I think that we have already established that preservation of good architecture, or at the very least, preservation of historically valued buildings, is a good foundation from which to vary the urban palette. Retrofitting the lost styles is far more trecherous. Ideally, we should not be in the business of force feeding a historicist style by inserting buildings that look like they belong to the past, and proclaiming that our work is done - that's nostalgia, and nostalgia seldom if ever results in a good architecture. One of the more intriguing dimensions to so-called Modernist architecture is that much of it strives to be ahistorical, stripping down to content, not decoration, the latter of which can be typed and dated in a hurry. But the result is not automatically OK because we may prefer it - that too must be evaluated.

Contextualism is often given as the reason for creating some of these historicist buildings, and it can end up in denigrating not only the work created, but also what it is meant to enhance. Aggressive, anti-contextual buildings, are an extreme from the opposite direction - sometimes it still works, often it does not.

I suppose that some will think that a step back means you lose by definition some of your passion toward the very thing that you are experiencing. On the contrary, it intensifies that passion, but at the same time it puts that passion in alignment with our brain. You often see other layers to the architectural statement, or the lack thereof. You can sometimes determine when something is following rote or is truly an inspired work. Ultimately this approach will lead to a subjective conclusion, and I will never try to portray it otherwise. But it would be a serious mistake to dismiss the value of going through with what one person here disdainfully refers to as the 'intellectual exercise'.

Architects are likely to create their work with both passion and brains, why don't we return the favour with our passion and brains, and not just one or the other.
 
From another thread by US:

"My baritone friend Gianmarco Segato is having another voice recital:

Location:
The Victoria College Chapel,
Victoria College Building,
91 Charles Street West.

We will touch down in the lands of Bach, Handel, Gounod, Massenet, Howells and Respighi. At the keyboard, collaborative pianist Jennifer Yu.

A pleasant late afternoon of song, followed no doubt by some less rarified enjoyment at a local watering hole."



How was your baratone friend's classical medly any different from any historicist pastiche. Why not be consistent in your views? By the way, you never clarified where the rarified enjoyment occured.


"Actually, I think the problem with supporters of 1 St. Thomas is they have too much "good taste"."

Good taste compared to you - impossible.
 
1 st tom's haters how do you respond to my pov? I love both Aa-style and Stern-style! And i come from a family with hundreds of years of architectural and artistic careers.

The people with the rules will probably disallow you.
 

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