[Northern Light]

Exactly. At this point it doesn't matter that there are things that are not 100% optimal. We need to just accept that the RL is dead and stop whining about it. lets just be happy that progress is being made on the Ontario line.

Things are vastly below optimal.

I would never whine.

I simply say straight out, as currently proposed we're better off cancelling this project in its entirety.

There is no real progress being made.

We don't even have a high level design complete, let alone detailed design.

The property required has not been acquired, no tenders have closed.

This project is nothing more than a consultant enrichment scheme at this point; and a waste of time and money.

 

[north-of-anything]

Is progress being made anymore? Seems like every couple months some major component abruptly changes, and all we get is an ad hoc justification on the Metrolinx blog for that particular decision. Where are the technical drawings? Where are the schedules?

 

[Northern Light]

Since when does the Federal Government do an environmental assessment of a provincial led transit project? I swear some of these councillors are useless.

From this document:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/finch_west_ea/chapter_6.pdf

On its face, this will meet 4 of the 5 criteria in all likelihood, and 1 for sure.

 

[nfitz]

Since when does the Federal Government do an environmental assessment of a provincial led transit project?

In addition to what's noted above, the feds have the power to do an EA of any project if the minister of the environment and climate change believes that public concerns related to those effects warrant the designation.

I swear some of these councillors are useless.

For following the procedures?

The federal government explicitly funded and managed the construction of the existing embankment. It's not like they have not been involved historically. There's also indications that the province and Metrolinx have not been consulting with the community or first nations in good faith.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Federal Environmental Assessment of the Ontario Line - by Councillor Paula Fletcher, seconded by Councillor Joe Cressy​

* Notice of this Motion has been given. * This Motion is subject to referral to the Executive Committee. A two-thirds vote is required to waive referral.​

Recommendations​

Councillor Paula Fletcher, seconded by Councillor Joe Cressy recommends that: 1. City Council express support for Save Jimmie Simpson and the Lakeshore East Community Advisory Committee’s request that the above ground section of the Ontario Line through Riverside and Leslieville be designated for a federal Environmental Assessment pursuant to s. 9(1) of the Impact Assessment Act. 2. City Council request that a copy of this Motion be provided to the Honourable Caroline Mulroney, Minister of Transportation and the Honourable Jeff Yurek, Minister of Environment, Conservation and Parks. 3. City Council request that a copy of this Motion be provided to the Honourable Jonathan Wilkinson, Federal Minister of the Environment and Climate Change and the Honourable Catherine McKenna, Federal Minister of Infrastructure and Communities.​

Summary​

At its meeting of November 25, 2020, City Council adopted a number of recommendations requesting the Executive Director, Transit Expansion Office to request information from Metrolinx about economic business case, impacts on the local community, mitigation measures, costs comparison for running the Ontario Line underground and other previous requests City Council has made of Metrolinx; and to report to the January 27, 2021 meeting of the Executive Committee on the information from Metrolinx. Those previous requests include Council voting, at its January 29, 2020 meeting, to call for a full, formal Transit Project Assessment Process and to include consideration of alternatives for the technology, station locations and alignment, including putting underground those sections proposed to be above ground in the Ontario Line Initial Business Case. The Transit Expansion Office did not report back to the January 27, 2021 meeting of the Executive Committee on the Ontario Line nor did it report to the subsequent meeting of the Executive Committee on March 30, 2021. City Council on February 2, 3 and 5, 2021, adopted the following: City Council reiterate its support for a below ground subway in the segment of the former Relief Line from Pape to the Don Yards, the elevated segment of the proposed Ontario Line that runs through the Thorncliffe Park neighbourhood and the length of the Ontario line from Eglinton East through the Flemingdon Community and that Metrolinx, the Ontario Provincial Government and the Federal Government be formally advised of City Council's decision. In an attempt to get answers to the questions the community and City Council have requested regarding the Ontario Line, Save Jimmie Simpson and the Lakeshore East Community Advisory Committee, along with hundreds of community members, have formally requested the federal government do an environmental assessment of the proposed Ontario Line. Such a review would not only strengthen the project but given that the provincial government is asking the federal government to help fund the Ontario Line it is a prudent course of action.​

Background Information​

Member Motion MM31.12 (http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2021/mm/bgrd/backgroundfile-165256.pdf)​

Since when does the Federal Government do an environmental assessment of a provincial led transit project? I swear some of these councillors are useless.

In addition to what's noted above, the feds have the power to do an EA of any project if the minister of the environment and climate change believes that public concerns related to those effects warrant the designation.

For following the procedures?

The federal government explicitly funded and managed the construction of the existing embankment. It's not like they have not been involved historically. There's also indications that the province and Metrolinx have not been consulting with the community or first nations in good faith.

This is at least the second time in recent weeks that Ontario municipalities have requested the Federal Government to complete their own EAs parallel to the EAs of the Provincial Government. There's a concerning lack of trust between the provincial government and municipalities.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

From this document:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/finch_west_ea/chapter_6.pdf

View attachment 309431

On its face, this will meet 4 of the 5 criteria in all likelihood, and 1 for sure.

On that note, I'd really urge the feds to review the Ontario Line BCA with a fine tooth comb before making any funding decisions.

 

[ARG1]

On that note, I'd really urge the feds to review the Ontario Line BCA with a fine tooth comb before making any funding decisions.

Sounds like a wonderful plan to get absolutely nothing done.

 

[Northern Light]

Sounds like a wonderful plan to get absolutely nothing done.

Wouldn't change much then would it?

The O/L is going nowhere fast; and nowhere promising at any pace.

 

[afransen]

Two other fun fantasy alignments:
1) Using the Hwy 404 corridor up to the huge business district at Hwy 7 and Leslie
2) Using the CP freight rail corridor that heads north-east from Science Centre station, through Scarborough into Malvern

I'm skeptical of the value of having subway running along highways. The value of transit is being in walking distance, and no one wants to be that close to a highway. If it has to be elevated anyway, elevating over an arterial makes a bit more sense.

 

[afransen]

I imagine they could keep it elevated and simply provide a long escalator across the multiple levels, much like the transfer at Kennedy today.

They are planning on keeping it elevated at Eglinton for the connection I believe.

Now Don Mills would be quite a bit larger of an escalator than at Kennedy or the future Science Centre station as Don Mills is actually quite a deep station.. but It's possible.

Might be one of those situations that calls for high capacity elevators (given the volume of transfers should not be overwhelmingly high).

 

[drum118]

I'm skeptical of the value of having subway running along highways. The value of transit is being in walking distance, and no one wants to be that close to a highway. If it has to be elevated anyway, elevating over an arterial makes a bit more sense.

About a decade or so while talking with MTO engineers at the main office about transit lanes on the highways, we got around talking about high order transit on them.

We end up looking at the 401 from Pickering to Milton with HO down the centre of it. Various issues and problems were looked like keeping the line low for the airport, the rollercoaster to get up and over the various roads crossing the 401 and which ones should have stations and trying to keep the line level as much as possible.

We even got around at looking at branch lines running to the city centre as well a few to the north.

The question rose how to build it without disruption traffic on the 401 or keep it as low as possible. One idea was to core drill a support base that would support the support for the guideway. You only need to close a lane in each direction to do this. Then girders would be brought in as full prefabricate section that only need rails added to them at a later date.

The big issues was the stations as they would require transit to stop on the bridge and would require long walk-in from both ends.

At the end of the day, MTO thought it had legs and needed more detail work for various thing and have never heard anymore on it.

The idea has been used in the US, but more on the side. LA has 2 designs out now for the same project with one team looking at heavy rail while the other is for light rail/bus for the centre of the highway. Each team was given about $70 million to do the full design and costing to build it.

MTO will look at any type of transit for highway as long as it doesn't remove any existing lanes of traffic. One reason the subway from Kipling to the airport will never get off the ground using 427 or anything in place of a subway on the surface.

 

[Northern Light]

MTO will look at any type of transit for highway as long as it doesn't remove any existing lanes of traffic. One reason the subway from Kipling to the airport will never get off the ground using 427 or anything in place of a subway on the surface.

We need to stop the tail from wagging the dog.

Removing lanes is highly desirable.

Though the stations should still be off to the side, via tunneling.

 

[drum118]

We need to stop the tail from wagging the dog.

Removing lanes is highly desirable.

Though the stations should still be off to the side, via tunneling.

There not many place in Toronto to have transit on the side of the 401 or go underground for stations.

 

[officedweller]

Torontonians should be careful about their constant demands. If this project morphs into nothing but a bitch session project and hence significantly pushes back the time table as well as greatly increasing the cost, I could honestly see Ford just turning around and telling the City to f... off and telling them to build the damn thing themselves and washing his hands of it.

... or "due to the increased costs of a tunnelled allignment in this section, the Leslieville Station will be a 'future station' and be deferred until additional funds become available in future."

Since when does the Federal Government do an environmental assessment of a provincial led transit project? I swear some of these councillors are useless.

Potentially if there is a Federal approval of some sort required - in this case impact on the railway corridor which would be under Federal jurisdiction. However, a comprehensive assessment shouldn't be needed.

 

[EnviroTO]

This is at least the second time in recent weeks that Ontario municipalities have requested the Federal Government to complete their own EAs parallel to the EAs of the Provincial Government. There's a concerning lack of trust between the provincial government and municipalities.

Not surprising considering how this government views conservation authorities and use of minister's zoning orders. I get the feeling that historic sites and the environment will not be allowed to impede development with this government.