[Tramways]

I am withholding any firm judgement until the miles of orange pylons and construction debris are gone…..but…. when I drive Eglinton East my gut reaction remains “ugh”, grass or no grass. It’s an ugly streetscape. I also find the OCS structure to be quite severe and overpowering….. surely there was a simpler and more elegant way to string those wires. Even the traffic control structures are overbuilt.
I’m glad to see any length of grass, especially when I know what a mind shift it has taken to get even a token amount injected into the City’s minds. But Eglinton is not shaping up as vibrant, yet. Let’s see a whole lot of tree planting, and a new built form that’s better than all those grubby commercial one-storey outlets.
At least we can now move a lot more people a lot faster….the stage is set for better things.

- Paul

Tree planting means tree maintenance. Any guesses as to who would pay for that?
And what would be a first item on the chopping block during the inevitable future rounds of tax/budget cuts?

Grubby one-storey strip malls are all that can be supported given that they're surrounded by low density suburbs.
And "density-in-a-hurry" projects like condo/apartment towers are usually serviced by grubby one-storey shopping blocks
(EglintonSquare/GoldenMile, MarkhamSquare, etc).

"Vibrant" used to describe the Caribbean neighbourhoods of Eglinton West near Oakwood, Dufferin and Keele.
"Devastated by construction" is the current description for those areas.
Can some of those businesses hang on long enough to reap the benefit of no longer having to endure streams of buses past their doors?

 

[Tramways]

Yes, I don't understand why the catenary on Spadina south of front is so lightweight and clean that it almost blends into its surroundings while some of these structures are so massive and the wiring almost looks disorganized.

Eglinton Line is really more like a train line than a city streetcar line, hence the beefier infrastructure.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Tree planting means tree maintenance. Any guesses as to who would pay for that?
And what would be a first item on the chopping block during the inevitable future rounds of tax/budget cuts?

And what would you prefer? No streetscape at all?

uGRbby one-storey strip malls are all that can be supported given that they're surrounded by low density suburbs.
And "density-in-a-hurry" projects like condo/apartment towers are usually serviced by grubby one-storey shopping blocks
(EglintonSquare/GoldenMile, MarkhamSquare, etc).

Or we could demand from developers that they have commercial space at the bottom of their towers.

V"ibrant" used to describe the Caribbean neighbourhoods of Eglinton West near Oakwood, Dufferin and Keele.
"Devastated by construction" is the current description for those areas.

Can some of those businesses hang on long enough to reap the benefit of no longer having to endure streams of buses past their doors?

And? Would you prefer our infra remain the same for another 20 years? People who complain the loudest about road construction usually complain the most about the poor road conditios that construction fixes, and people who complain most about transit construction also complain the most about road congestion. It's amazing, really.

 

[crs1026]

"Vibrant" used to describe the Caribbean neighbourhoods of Eglinton West near Oakwood, Dufferin and Keele.
"Devastated by construction" is the current description for those areas.
Can some of those businesses hang on long enough to reap the benefit of no longer having to endure streams of buses past their doors?

Those wonderful communities were doomed the moment the Crosstown project was approved. Development follows transit, and rents rise with development. Even the businesses that survive will see at minimum their leases terminated - as landlords redevelop. And when they hunt for new space, the rents will be higher, possibly prohibitively so.

The reality is, neighbourhoods move around. I’m not celebrating the impact on Eglinton, but I don’t think we can stand in the way of this kind of change.

The hideous torture of the past 7-8 years’ construction is salt in the wound - moreso since it probably could have been mitigated if we hadn’t been in love with deep bore tunnelling. If there are particular structures that deserve preservation due to their association with these communities, there may still be time to have them designated before the bulldozers arrive - but I doubt that would keep these particular communities themselves in situ.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

Actually not necessarily the case. . . .

All else being equal - actually completely the case.

If you start to adjust the geometry you can adjust and improve certain things, although those come with a cost. But to simply move the crossovers from one end of the platform to the other? Nope, no difference.

Dan

 

[syn]

Basic is fine, focus on extreme starchitect designed stuff when we don't have a massive shortfall of coverage, and the TYSSE shows what happens in Toronto when you aim higher too . . .

Who said anything about "extreme starchitect designed stuff"?

And what exactly has the TYSSE shown when Toronto 'aims higher'?

The lack of coverage has nothing to do with well designed stations.

 

[Voltz]

All else being equal - actually completely the case.

If you start to adjust the geometry you can adjust and improve certain things, although those come with a cost. But to simply move the crossovers from one end of the platform to the other? Nope, no difference.

Dan

My point was that side platform terminal stations have shorter crossovers that require less time for the trains to go through them, and a train using the crossover is less likely to block an arriving or departing train. Also, placing the crossovers beyond the station is required so that one side is for loading and the other is for unloading.

 

[max]

All else being equal - actually completely the case.

If you start to adjust the geometry you can adjust and improve certain things, although those come with a cost. But to simply move the crossovers from one end of the platform to the other? Nope, no difference.

Dan

Couldn't you improve throughput with the crossover or crossover and pocket setup past the terminal station with step-back crewing?

My rough thought on how this would work for a single train is:

1. Train pulls in to it's right side track at terminal station
2. The next operator gets on the train at the terminal station
3. Train pulls into an empty tail track
4. New operator immediately takes over from initial operator
5. Train pulls out into the opposite track from step 1
6. Initial operator disembarks.
7. Train leaves the station

To me it seems like if you tried to pull off something similar with a crossover before the station, every time a train leaves the station via the crossover it would block the incoming track with its movements. With the above, incoming trains can still hit the platform while the train is being reversed in the tail track once they clear the switch(es) past the terminal station.

I'll admit, I have no idea how long step 4 would take for 2 operators to do the handover, but I'm assuming one would optimize the tail track infrastructure to increase train storage past the terminal to allow for an efficient operation. Is there some kind of signal issue where a train in the tail tracks somehow impacts any train coming behind it?

 

[Tramways]

And what would you prefer? No streetscape at all?

Would you prefer to have dead trees lining the street?
Grand, designed streetscapes always require some kind of long-term maintenance.
In the end, who will be responsible for that maintenance?
And what happens when the {govt/owners/mgmt} changes and the inevitable cost-reductions take place?

 

[drum118]

Couldn't you improve throughput with the crossover or crossover and pocket setup past the terminal station with step-back crewing?

My rough thought on how this would work for a single train is:

1. Train pulls in to it's right side track at terminal station
2. The next operator gets on the train at the terminal station
3. Train pulls into an empty tail track
4. New operator immediately takes over from initial operator
5. Train pulls out into the opposite track from step 1
6. Initial operator disembarks.
7. Train leaves the station

To me it seems like if you tried to pull off something similar with a crossover before the station, every time a train leaves the station via the crossover it would block the incoming track with its movements. With the above, incoming trains can still hit the platform while the train is being reversed in the tail track once they clear the switch(es) past the terminal station.

I'll admit, I have no idea how long step 4 would take for 2 operators to do the handover, but I'm assuming one would optimize the tail track infrastructure to increase train storage past the terminal to allow for an efficient operation. Is there some kind of signal issue where a train in the tail tracks somehow impacts any train coming behind it?

Well in Montreal this summer, rode the green line to the east terminal. Train unload and then continue to the crossover and use one of the 2 stub tracks not having a train on it. A few minute later, the train sitting on the stub track pulls into the station to go west leaving an opening for the next eastbound train. Would say off hand that you are looking at less than a minute to use the crossover and to allow the waiting train to depart. What I saw was both trains sitting for about a minute before the westbound departed the stub end.

I think headway was 2:30 and seem to be time that both trains arrive at the station at the same time. Those in Montreal can tell better than me since I never time it nor do more than 2 movements. Haven't seen the ends of the other lines nor the green west end to see if this the same I saw. Could be wrong, but you may be able to get headway down to 90-120 seconds using this method.

Have seen driver swap before doing the stub end move in a few places. Driver gets on the opposite end going into the stub end and becomes the driver going the opposite direction with the other driver getting off at the station. Side platforms take more time to change drivers that you need to have 2 drivers per end with one walking from one platform to the other while the other is ready to take over of the incoming train. Centre platform would only require one driver.

 

[ARG1]

Well in Montreal this summer, rode the green line to the east terminal. Train unload and then continue to the crossover and use one of the 2 stub tracks not having a train on it. A few minute later, the train sitting on the stub track pulls into the station to go west leaving an opening for the next eastbound train. Would say off hand that you are looking at less than a minute to use the crossover and to allow the waiting train to depart. What I saw was both trains sitting for about a minute before the westbound departed the stub end.

I think headway was 2:30 and seem to be time that both trains arrive at the station at the same time. Those in Montreal can tell better than me since I never time it nor do more than 2 movements. Haven't seen the ends of the other lines nor the green west end to see if this the same I saw. Could be wrong, but you may be able to get headway down to 90-120 seconds using this method.

Have seen driver swap before doing the stub end move in a few places. Driver gets on the opposite end going into the stub end and becomes the driver going the opposite direction with the other driver getting off at the station. Side platforms take more time to change drivers that you need to have 2 drivers per end with one walking from one platform to the other while the other is ready to take over of the incoming train. Centre platform would only require one driver.

The question then is how much time do side platforms save the rider? By having a side platform arrangement you don't have to worry about a train slowly chugging towards the final station while it waits for a train to come out of the platform, which can be some of the most grueling aspects of the TTC Subway. The Subway goes straight to the terminus station, you get off, no time is wasted. How long it takes the train to double back and get back to the platform is of no concern to the rider at that point.

 

[drum118]

The question then is how much time do side platforms save the rider? By having a side platform arrangement you don't have to worry about a train slowly chugging towards the final station while it waits for a train to come out of the platform, which can be some of the most grueling aspects of the TTC Subway. The Subway goes straight to the terminus station, you get off, no time is wasted. How long it takes the train to double back and get back to the platform is of no concern to the rider at that point.

Neither type of platform waste riders time, but how they get to them does waste rider time about 10 seconds depending on the access from the surface to the concourse.

If you have a straight access from the street to the centre platform, this will be the fastest route for the rider. If you do the straight from street to the concourse and then to side platform, it the time to walk from centre to the side. Not all stations are built this way to the point access from the street can be a number of combinations that adds more time for riders than the access to the X style platform.

As long there is no crossover in front of centre platform, very little different between the side and the centre for riders. From the centre platform to the stub end will see extra seconds in using the crossover that has no effect on riders.

Where entrance to stations are place are the wasted time and only have to look at Runnymede and Main Station to see it compare to Keele or St Clair.

 

[Tramways]

And? Would you prefer our infra remain the same for another 20 years? People who complain the loudest about road construction usually complain the most about the poor road conditios that construction fixes, and people who complain most about transit construction also complain the most about road congestion. It's amazing, really.

Eglinton Crosstown is long overdue (but for Mike Harris, it would have been part of the full subway network).
It's a shame that the ones most affected by its construction, the ones who could have benefitted the most, are the many small businesses which used to line the street in those less-than-glamorous neighbourhoods.
Most are now gone. Only the most tenacious are still there.
Will those survivors thrive or will they be pushed out once the line is actually running?

 

[Tramways]

Those wonderful communities were doomed the moment the Crosstown project was approved. Development follows transit, and rents rise with development. Even the businesses that survive will see at minimum their leases terminated - as landlords redevelop. And when they hunt for new space, the rents will be higher, possibly prohibitively so.

The reality is, neighbourhoods move around. I’m not celebrating the impact on Eglinton, but I don’t think we can stand in the way of this kind of change.

The hideous torture of the past 7-8 years’ construction is salt in the wound - moreso since it probably could have been mitigated if we hadn’t been in love with deep bore tunnelling. If there are particular structures that deserve preservation due to their association with these communities, there may still be time to have them designated before the bulldozers arrive - but I doubt that would keep these particular communities themselves in situ.

- Paul

So in short, to the small businesses who've had to endure ... "Them's the breaks. Don't let the door hit you on the way out." ...?
Nice.

But the particularly devastated stretch is between Keele and the Allen Expy.
It is most definitely _not_ anywhere near the north border of ForestHill.
It's actually surrounded by inexpensive housing (apartments blocks, working-class houses) which had historically provided workers for the businesses in the industrial sections to the north and clients for the businesses along that stretch.
If any landlords along that stretch are expecting leasing enquiries from Chanel or Tiffany, they might be waiting a while.

 

[crs1026]

So in short, to the small businesses who've had to endure ... "Them's the breaks. Don't let the door hit you on the way out." ...?
Nice.

But the particularly devastated stretch is between Keele and the Allen Expy.
It is most definitely _not_ anywhere near the north border of ForestHill.
It's actually surrounded by inexpensive housing (apartments blocks, working-class houses) which had historically provided workers for the businesses in the industrial sections to the north and clients for the businesses along that stretch.
If any landlords along that stretch are expecting leasing enquiries from Chanel or Tiffany, they might be waiting a while.

You need to check your facts. Here's the current snapshot of residences for sale along that stretch, courtesy the MLS web site. Of the residential properties shown, only two are listed for less than $1M, at $930K and $949K respectively. The rest are already over $1M, with one listed for $1.7M. Some are clearly already refurb'ed.

I'm not a fan of gentrification - but where transit is built, it is unstoppable.

The only good news is that many of the residences that will turn over in the area, and some of the commercial buildings too, are still in the hands of long-term owners of modest origins, who now have a solid retirement windfall thanks to the rising real estate prices. Gentrification has its trickle-down benefits.

The bigger issue is that no neighbourhood in the City is ever frozen in time. Look how many different communities and ethnicities have passed through Kensington, St Clair, Dufferin-College, Weston, the Junction. These communities haven't vanished, they are more vibrant somewhere else in the city. Eglinton West will be no different

- Paul