[David A]

For a retailer, it's less the problems downtown (not to minimize them in the least and you should know from my posts that's one of the last things I do) than a drastic glut of space and not enough footsteps walking past those storefronts to support their business.

Will fixing the problems help? Absolutely, but fixing the problems won't eliminate the glut and if we're going to reduce the excess inventory, my own preference would be to focus on our street oriented retail, not 50 plus year old suburban mall and large department store type spaces that there is no demand for.

Edmonton Centre was built in the 1970's, Eaton Centre (now City Centre West) was built in the mid 1980's, other than one expansion in the 1990's to Edmonton Centre the amount of retail space hasn't changed but that was later offset by the conversion of the lower level to parking.

So there is really no significant glut of retail space, just weak demand mainly because of several years of working at home due to COVID, which is now being reversed as people return to work in the office.

 

[Barnaby]

The lack of demand is due to the shortage of housing on the mall doorstep.

Any activity besides the construction of housing on the mall property is just going to be malinvestment. Time isn't going to sort this issue out. Having 3,000+ people reliant on the mall for groceries and consumer goods is the surest way to begin fixing the issue.

I don't understand the institutional desire toward blaming this on COVID and consumer trends. This could have been predicted 20 years ago, but for some reason the commercial real estate guys don't get it until it's too late.

 

[buildings]

they really should demo the Bay space and build housing there. I think housing geared toward down-sizing seniors would go like hot cakes: retail and medical services available year round all within a climate controlled environment with pedway connections to the library, arts district, ice district plus the YMCA pool and gym across the street...yeah, I'd buy into that.

 

[kcantor]

...
So there is really no significant glut of retail space, just weak demand...

Okay, I'll bite... Whats the difference between a glut of retail space and weak demand which has existed for decades?

 

[David A]

Hind sight is always 20/20, but I don't believe this could have been predicted 20 years ago. City Centre was designed to serve the nearby office towers which were fairly empty due to COVID as well as nearby downtown residents. Yes, getting more residents nearby now would help some, but unfortunately absolutely nothing is being built near the mall right now and sadly the closest site the old BMO/Tegler lot still remains empty after a number of years.

As well as COVID, I realize the demise of the department stores has also hurt this mall. It is not that all the commercial real estate people are so dumb, it is just not easy to take such a large amount of space in this area and repurpose it when there is no obvious demand for anything else here, which is why we get so many pie in the sky ideas.

It would also be nice to see the glut of empty street front retail space downtown filled, much of which was required to be built as residential buildings were developed downtown over the last couple decades, but somehow getting rid of City Centre will probably not help that much. I do think the mall, especially the west part needs to be redesigned to interact better with the street, now that the department store space there is empty perhaps this could happen.

 

[David A]

Okay, I'll bite... Whats the difference between a glut of retail space and weak demand which has existed for decades?

2020 to 2025 is not a decade.

 

[Offworld]

For a retailer, it's less the problems downtown (not to minimize them in the least and you should know from my posts that's one of the last things I do) than a drastic glut of space and not enough footsteps walking past those storefronts to support their business.

Will fixing the problems help? Absolutely, but fixing the problems won't eliminate the glut and if we're going to reduce the excess inventory, my own preference would be to focus on our street oriented retail, not 50 plus year old suburban mall and large department store type spaces that there is no demand for.

This! This is post of the week, and this is why you're all gonna buy me a bulldozer.

 

[thommyjo]

they really should demo the Bay space and build housing there. I think housing geared toward down-sizing seniors would go like hot cakes: retail and medical services available year round all within a climate controlled environment with pedway connections to the library, arts district, ice district plus the YMCA pool and gym across the street...yeah, I'd buy into that.

100% agree.

 

[scyeg]

This isn't a shopping centre, it's the latest of Bridge Studio's Sound Stages (Lake City):

View attachment 682304

The footprints could be readily provided within City Centre and the additional clear height could be readily created by removing the existing intermediate/second floors as required. The requirement for sound isolation between studios would provide lots of "width" as/where needed for any structural cross-bracing to replace the removed floors.

Doing this in the heart of downtown would provide lots of support in terms of hotels and restaurants and other services and in turn would support those uses.

With direct LRT connections, it would be easy to collaborate with the U of A, MacEwan and NAIT and would be an interesting add-on/tie-in to artists performing at Rogers Place that might want to record while they're here.

It's also something that would fit in well with the both the city and the province's desires to diversify and to encourage expansion for the film, television, and sound recording sectors.

I like this and had thought of it as an idea for repurposing Rexall. Would it be feasible? No idea, but there is no harm in thinking outside the box. Creative thinking is how real, workable ideas are found. Places like WEM and events like the Olympics in CGY wouldn’t exist without a crazy idea and willingness to take a risk and try.

 

[kcantor]

2020 to 2025 is not a decade.

AY was reporting a 19.2% retail vacancy in 2015 which is indeed a decade ago. And if hundreds of thousands of square feet of space hadn’t been converted to other uses or demolished the glut would be even worse.

 

[NicolBolas]

Malls are failing because I can just go on Amazon instead of dealing with people. This is amplified for the city center mall because now I have to drive down town which is a mess because we can't seem to understand phased approaches to infrastructure development. Then I have to park in the parking structure and either go in a elevator that stinks like stale piss, or take the stairs and navigate around people blasted on tranq. Now that I've made it into the mall I can shop in the same boring stores that every other mall has.

For the majority of Edmontonians the I talk to in the suburbs, most people actively avoid downtown, let alone have any desire to shop there.

That's the truth and that is the reason why city center is failing along with the majority of retail downtown.

 

[Barnaby]

The definition of suburban in Edmonton has somehow changed from Glenora, Grovenor, Beverly, Highlands, etc, to St.Albert and Terwillegar. I don't expect anyone to enjoy driving 30-40 minutes into the core for shopping.

The solution to CC's problems are simple. It's not by attracting people from outside of the CBD, we just need more of us living here.

 

[Edmcowboy11]

Well unfortunately there very little reason to go shopping in the downtown core. If I stay on the south side I can go to either southgate or millwood's town center or South Edmonton Common and have more options than in the downtown area.

Downtown has to continue to grow its residential population that needs retail and services which in turn hopefully can attract more businesses of all sorts for those residents.

One thing that astounds me is the complete absence of on of the biggest restaurant chains in the entire world from the downtown, McDonalds. I'm not a fan and admittedly I am trying to avoid that restaurant for health reasons, but it's amazing there isn't a McDonald's either on Jasper Ave, or in or near Ice District. In every city around the world I've been to there is a McDonald's in the core of the city. What does that say about our downtown core?

 

[David A]

Malls are failing because I can just go on Amazon instead of dealing with people. This is amplified for the city center mall because now I have to drive down town which is a mess because we can't seem to understand phased approaches to infrastructure development. Then I have to park in the parking structure and either go in a elevator that stinks like stale piss, or take the stairs and navigate around people blasted on tranq. Now that I've made it into the mall I can shop in the same boring stores that every other mall has.

For the majority of Edmontonians the I talk to in the suburbs, most people actively avoid downtown, let alone have any desire to shop there.

That's the truth and that is the reason why city center is failing along with the majority of retail downtown.

You are correct, the problem is not the mall, it is Edmontonians avoiding downtown, which was made worse by failures our civic government (ex. the never ending Valley Line construction in front of the mall) and the failure of them and other levels of government to deal with safety issues, homelessness and drug problems concentrated downtown. Add to that COVID, with several years of working from home and Amazon and you have a heck of a lot of problems here.

However, most of these problems can be dealt with much better if the political will exists, but I suppose its easier not to and instead focus on getting rid of more of what little retail is left of downtown, which unfortunately will not make it more desireable to live in. So we continue to get pie in the sky ideas.

 

[David A]

Well unfortunately there very little reason to go shopping in the downtown core. If I stay on the south side I can go to either southgate or millwood's town center or South Edmonton Common and have more options than in the downtown area.

Downtown has to continue to grow its residential population that needs retail and services which in turn hopefully can attract more businesses of all sorts for those residents.

One thing that astounds me is the complete absence of on of the biggest restaurant chains in the entire world from the downtown, McDonalds. I'm not a fan and admittedly I am trying to avoid that restaurant for health reasons, but it's amazing there isn't a McDonald's either on Jasper Ave, or in or near Ice District. In every city around the world I've been to there is a McDonald's in the core of the city. What does that say about our downtown core?

Oh it says quite a bit. If you go to other cities, you will see some empty spaces due to COVID and the closure of department stores, but Edmonton is far the worst. It is embarrassing and we don't seem to have enough will to fix it.