[TAS]

O'day-min Park is by far the worst example of safe paths I have come across in my walks through downtown in terms of ice and traction.

It has never recovered from the first episode of thick ice that developed. They apply sand, which helps, then it gets swept off by the large brushes after snowfall. But the ice remains and gets polished. So crews have to keep applying new sand. I spoke to 2 crew members this morning on-site and they said they are limited in what they can apply.

As a result it's terrible. The city does not want to use any salt mixture - but that thick base layer of ice remains. It would just be better to keep layer of snow instead for better traction rather than removing it everytime.

Pics may not capture it. No traction. Very icy.

 

[TAS]

O'day-min Park is by far the worst example of safe paths I have come across in my walks through downtown in terms of ice and traction.

It has never recovered from the first episode of thick ice that developed. They apply sand, which helps, then it gets swept off by the large brushes after snowfall. But the ice remains and gets polished. So crews have to keep applying new sand. I spoke to 2 crew members this morning on-site and they said they are limited in what they can apply.

As a result it's terrible. The city does not want to use any salt mixture - but that thick base layer of ice remains. It would just be better to keep layer of snow instead for better traction rather than removing it everytime.

Pics may not capture it. No traction. Very icy.

View attachment 703951View attachment 703953

Sweden is developing and implementing environmentally friendly de-icing solutions, like mixtures with beet extract and cornstarch, that melt ice effectively for sidewalk safety while being safe for wildlife and the environment, reducing the harm caused by traditional salt. These innovations, including smarter salt use, focus on biodegradable ingredients that don't poison birds or damage soil and waterways, proving that road safety and ecological protection can coexist.

 

[northlands]

Yup the walkways have been pretty sadly treacherous. Guessing the flipside of the issue is they don't want to/can't use machinery to scrape the sidewalks bare for fear of damaging the concrete and/or voiding contractor warranty on it.

Hopefully next time it warms up a bit the City dispatches a crew with bladed shovels and hand scrapers to clear off the ice.

Overall, I think @archited had the right idea with heated sidewalks. If there was ever a spot to trial it out, this would have been it... but I can also already imagine the Sun editorials reading "our roads are INFESTED with POTHOLES while city council spends ALL YOUR TAX DOLLARS on HEATED SIDEWALKS in their new VANITY park for HOMELESS to use them as beds to do DRUGS and have SEX on them in front of your CHILDREN!"

 

[TAS]

Yup the walkways have been pretty sadly treacherous. Guessing the flipside of the issue is they don't want to/can't use machinery to scrape the sidewalks bare for fear of damaging the concrete and/or voiding contractor warranty on it.

Hopefully next time it warms up a bit the City dispatches a crew with bladed shovels and hand scrapers to clear off the ice.

Overall, I think @archited had the right idea with heated sidewalks. If there was ever a spot to trial it out, this would have been it... but I can also already imagine the Sun editorials reading "our roads are INFESTED with POTHOLES while city council spends ALL YOUR TAX DOLLARS on HEATED SIDEWALKS in their new VANITY park for HOMELESS to use them as beds to do DRUGS and have SEX on them in front of your CHILDREN!"

Thats where you have to show the financial impact and savings over time along with safety.

 

[Oilguy]

Tough situation with the paths, this new norm of freezing rain and thaws is something we need to figure out, and the park not about to be renovated to have heated paths. Deicing that pretty fresh concrete would be a bad idea.

Does sound like they have the order of operations off pretty badly. Sweep then sand, ideally though in conditions like this they move to something a little more angular for sanding with a larger size too to give better traction.

 

[archited]

and the larks not about to be renovated to have heated paths

Not so -- in fact if anything suggests heated paths the recent weather event lays the need out quite clearly. Nothing can be done until summer (late spring) but then on top of what is existing could be a parging layer embedded with aluminum flakes (heat reflective) to create a smooth bed (1/8" max) and then interconnected heating pads (e.g. Nuheat) -- another 1/8" thickness; on top of that 2" of lightweight concrete (fibre-reinforced to protect the mats and seal out moisture; expansion joints could be silicone sealed) and then a finish layer of thin-set ceramic tile (3/4" thickness)... the total additional thickness to the path would be a tolerable 3". Temperature and Humidity sensors could be used to predict weather events combined with other predictive systems (radar) so that the call-for-heat pre-warms the path before the actual event occurs (when the snow/freezing rain starts falling it is already sublimating immediately it meets the path surface). This in fact could be a good test system for the installation of heated paths for all new work across the City, focussing first on well-used MUPs and Bike Paths along with downtown sidewalks and streets.

 

[Oilguy]

Y

Not so -- in fact if anything suggests heated paths the recent weather event lays the need out quite clearly. Nothing can be done until summer (late spring) but then on top of what is existing could be a parging layer embedded with aluminum flakes (heat reflective) to create a smooth bed (1/8" max) and then interconnected heating pads (e.g. Nuheat) -- another 1/8" thickness; on top of that 2" of lightweight concrete (fibre-reinforced to protect the mats and seal out moisture; expansion joints could be silicone sealed) and then a finish layer of thin-set ceramic tile (3/4" thickness)... the total additional thickness to the path would be a tolerable 3". Temperature and Humidity sensors could be used to predict weather events combined with other predictive systems (radar) so that the call-for-heat pre-warms the path before the actual event occurs (when the snow/freezing rain starts falling it is already sublimating immediately it meets the path surface). This in fact could be a good test system for the installation of heated paths for all new work across the City, focussing first on well-used MUPs and Bike Paths along with downtown sidewalks and streets.

You are describing something that might be technically possible, and I appreciate the vision. I am saying there’s no political or financial chance it happens, so it’s an operations issue in my mind.

 

[TAS]

Walking by along 106st entrance to the park - this has been like this for a couple of days. Not so good for pushing strollers, a mobility device, seniors. Not so welcoming to have to step over a windrow from the sidewalk to this $48million park onto icy walkways.

Just down the block on the same street (in front of Autograph and the pottery shop) the sidewalk is clear and dry.

 

[archited]

I am saying there’s no political or financial chance it happens, so it’s an operations issue in my mind.

I get what you are saying. The opposite side of the coin is that from an OpEx standpoint this is actually cheaper than any other form of snow removal, both from an energy expenditure and a financial expenditure perspective. Sure there is a CapEx number but that can be recovered within a 10-year period. It makes sense financially and it is more environmentally friendly; it is cheaper from an insurance perspective and it is more aesthetic from a design perspective. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't happen other than stubborn, uninformed resistance from politicos.

 

[kcantor]

I get what you are saying. The opposite side of the coin is that from an OpEx standpoint this is actually cheaper than any other form of snow removal, both from an energy expenditure and a financial expenditure perspective. Sure there is a CapEx number but that can be recovered within a 10-year period. It makes sense financially and it is more environmentally friendly; it is cheaper from an insurance perspective and it is more aesthetic from a design perspective. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't happen other than stubborn, uninformed resistance from politicos.

Of course all of that melted/sublimated water has to go somewhere or it will simply pool and refreeze slicker and thicker when the system is turned off. This might work in theory (there’s lots of parkade ramps that use similar systems albeit with drains at the bottom) but my guess is this ship has already sailed.

 

[buildings]

heated parkade ramps don't melt the snow to water which then runs down the ramp and into the drains. the snow melts and quickly turns to vapour. There's no build up of liquid water.

 

[kcantor]

heated parkade ramps don't melt the snow to water which then runs down the ramp and into the drains. the snow melts and quickly turns to vapour. There's no build up of liquid water.

I beg to differ. During and after any major snowfall, the majority of that snow is turned into meltwater which does indeed flow down the ramp. Most ramps also incorporated channels to direct that flow. Only a relatively small portion of what falls is vaporized. If you don’t believe me, stand at the bottom of one during a major snowfall and see for yourself. The same holds true for a freezing rain.

 

[SarcasticMarmot]

heated parkade ramps don't melt the snow to water which then runs down the ramp and into the drains. the snow melts and quickly turns to vapour. There's no build up of liquid water.

Ya no, our condo parkade ramp has heated concrete and there is definitely a channel and drain at the bottom. It does indeed require regular maintenance and cleaning and when it gets clogged it's a major issue. When there is a large snowfall it can be quite a large amount of water.

 

[archited]

The ratio of snowfall to melt/sublimate-water/mist is between 10:1 and 20:1 based on the type of snow that is falling -- most large snowfalls occur in milder weather and the snow is "lighter" so the ratio is closer to 20:1 (20 cm of snow converts to 1 cm of melt/sublimate); conversely dense snowfall is typical of colder temperatures with much smaller amounts of accumulation (5 cm of snow converts to 0.5 cm of water. With proper path drainage (2% slope from path crown) that portion of the snow that is not sublimated will quickly drain to the edge of the walk and will not be required to drain away because the total accumulation is very small. Check out the visuals I provided earlier. This isn't so much as a "straw man" as it is a "red herring". Parking ramps are far broader in terms of surface area requiring drainage than are foot paths. Herring are a favorite Norse food.

 

[kcantor]

The ratio of snowfall to melt/sublimate-water/mist is between 10:1 and 20:1 based on the type of snow that is falling -- most large snowfalls occur in milder weather and the snow is "lighter" so the ratio is closer to 20:1 (20 cm of snow converts to 1 cm of melt/sublimate); conversely dense snowfall is typical of colder temperatures with much smaller amounts of accumulation (5 cm of snow converts to 0.5 cm of water. With proper path drainage (2% slope from path crown) that portion of the snow that is not sublimated will quickly drain to the edge of the walk and will not be required to drain away because the total accumulation is very small. Check out the visuals I provided earlier. This isn't so much as a "straw man" as it is a "red herring". Parking ramps are far broader in terms of surface area requiring drainage than are foot paths. Herring are a favorite Norse food.

Except… the water will not drain away from that “edge of the walk”. The initial water flow will be “soaked up” by the snow at the edge of the walk which will in turn freeze into an insulated impermeable curb/ice dam which will hold water and allow it to back up over the walk and then freeze. You see that a lot on sidewalks set back from the street curb where there are snow banks on both sides. It’s the same phenomenon that creates ice dams on roofs.