[Bordercollie]

Its worth pointing out that these are the same trains that are used in Ottawa - the city which had a problem for a while with doors getting jammed whenever someone tried to hold them open (and as a resulted permanently halted rolling out door open buttons). I wouldn't be surprised if part of that bled over here.

Different systems, different ridership. Can't paint everything with the same brush.

 

[yurt2022]

Different systems, different ridership. Can't paint everything with the same brush.

And wouldn't these issues been rectified by the time Line 6 opened??

 

[ssiguy2]

Until this line get to, at maximum, 25 minutes then it's been a waste of time. Of course even 20 minutes is more than possible if the TTC stopped being afraid of hitting every unexpecting mosquito, Chow finally puts her money where her transit loving mouth is and does 100% transit priority so the train NEVER stops for a light, and the City holds meetings stating that at least 4, preferable 6, of these stations must close to turn this into the RAPID transit it was sold as being.

 

[chrisw]

This is probably why we also had to tape big "PUSH" stickers to the yellow bars on the rear doors of buses, so maybe we should add a sticker below the button that says "PUSH TO OPEN WHEN LIT"

To be fair, there are also bus doors that require you to wave to open.

 

[Westey]

If you flip the concern over LRT's meeting cars at grade and thus slowing vehicular traffic, to see it as cars meeting LRT at grade and thus slowing transit operations (i.e having to stop at intersections), Ford and Mammo's concerns were quite explicitly about slow travel speeds, they just emphasized the impact a street running line would have on a different road user than you would typically emphasize.

For all the attacks on their intelligence Ford and the like endured for opposing Transit City and the viability of street-running LRT in Toronto, he sure was more right in the end than every planning and engineering "professional" who giddily cheered these farces along. Turns out just watching current operations (the downtown streetcars) gets you a clearer picture than a 1000 page business case based moreso in recollections of a Euro vacation spent riding trams than actual reality.

If 2011 Ford would have won the fight.

1. Eglinton LRT grade-separated from Mount Dennis to STC. (probably opening imminent - similar to now).
2. Finch LRT. cancelled/ppd.
3. Ontario Line - same as now.
4. Eglinton West LRT - same as now.
5. Yonge Subway - same as now.
6. B-D extension - cancelled. not needed as the combined Eglinton-Scarborough LRT would have served the purposed.
7. Possibly Sheppard Subway (to STC + Downsview) would be more advanced than what Sheppard is now. (Downsview more likely priority to compensate the West end for Finch transit cancellation).

If David Millers Transit City was successful.

1. We'd have Finch, Don Mills, Sheppard, Scarborough Malvern, Jane, Eglntion West LRT and Eglntion Central/East LRT and SRT replacement all complete.
2. All but SRT would be travelling at 12 km/h.
3. The Relief Line would still be in discussions - as since Don Mills LRT built it seems pointless to build a discontinuous stub line from Pape to City Hall.

 

[urbanclient]

TTC doesn't want to insult "dumb" riders when they just stand there waiting for the doors to open. Shouting through the speaker doesn't help cause either they never seen a button, their IQ is too low or they simply don't understand English. They had the whole decade top educate everyone on the downtown streetcar system but chose to simply let everyone inside freeze instead. Of course the TTC can't run a educational campaign properly either.

Guess what, I'm not French and I figured out how to open the doors within seconds just by watching the Parisiens. Not a single instructional sign saying how to open the door.
I guess I must be a 200 IQ genius...That or Torontonians are truly (seen as) stupid.

 

[Steve X]

Guess what, I'm not French and I figured out how to open the doors within seconds just by watching the Parisiens. Not a single instructional sign saying how to open the door.
I guess I must be a 200 IQ genius...That or Torontonians are truly (seen as) stupid.

View attachment 704512View attachment 704518

Never underestimate how stupid some can get.

I would say if they can't figure it out, just leave without them and ignore their complains.

 

[urbanclient]

Never underestimate how stupid some can get.

I would say if they can't figure it out, just leave without them and ignore their complains.

As an aside, Paris metro trains often can be opened well before they fully stop. It's quite possible to jump off a moving train. Imagine the pearl clutching on Toronto news.

New passenger-operated subway doors mean more comfortable temperatures, but are they safe? Transit safety experts say no.
*Cue old U of T prof saying exactly what the news wants them to say.*

 

[a2z]

Where are the most common employment areas that people along this route commute to? (Yes, getting to downtown will be a slog, but how many, beyond some UofT students, are really dependent on this commute in the first place? And vice versa with those coming from elsewhere to Humber)
Then that helps understand whether you sacrifice accessibility (though, yes, Stevenson should go, and probably one of Duncanwoods/Pearldale) for even more rapid speed.

I know it's just one neighbourhood on the route, but the Jane & Finch Initiative Mobility Documents from the City (2022) would paint a picture that most commutes (groceries, libraries, community, healthcare) are going to be <5 stations, and that these minor stations do serve various important purposes for the community. I imagine the result would be somewhat similar for the area near Albion Mall given similar incomes & demographics? Some excerpts below:

<< The intersection of Jane St and Finch Avenue lies at the centre of the study area, not only geographically but also socio-economically. Extending outwards from the intersection along Jane and Finch there are smaller but equally important centres, or "nodes". Often serviced bythe 35 Jane or 36 Finch West / future Finch West LRT and anchored by retail or institutional land uses, these nodes are locations where significant multi-modal activity occurs. Additionally, there are community facilities and other places of interest that lie within the internal neighbourhoods away from the busier arterial roads. >>

It seems like people want to get rid of Driftwood station given how close it is to Jane & Finch, but you do have a bus connection and to some degree it takes the strain off Jane & Finch? (Feels quite inefficient to have an intersection with 2 enclosed malls & 1 plaza. Will be interesting to see how things change with JFM+)

 

[Voltz]

If David Millers Transit City was successful.

1. We'd have Finch, Don Mills, Sheppard, Scarborough Malvern, Jane, Eglntion West LRT and Eglntion Central/East LRT and SRT replacement all complete.
2. All but SRT would be travelling at 12 km/h.
3. The Relief Line would still be in discussions - as since Don Mills LRT built it seems pointless to build a discontinuous stub line from Pape to City Hall.

No, the relief line would be further ahead than the Ontario line is now, and it could be extended like the Ontario Line is, that is just a political thing. The Finch LRT has already been improving, that's a rather negative view to think they would still be going 12km/h.

 

[FW36]

It seems like people want to get rid of Driftwood station given how close it is to Jane & Finch, but you do have a bus connection and to some degree it takes the strain off Jane & Finch? (Feels quite inefficient to have an intersection with 2 enclosed malls & 1 plaza. Will be interesting to see how things change with JFM+)

I would say it makes sense to remove driftwood station. As for the bus it can be rerouted towards Tobermory station.

 

[JSF-1]

Okay let me just pick apart a couple of things here:

Eglinton LRT grade-separated from Mount Dennis to STC. (probably opening imminent - similar to now).

Yes for a increased price because we all know that grade separation would have been entirely underground. Don't try and say it would have been elevated because Ford made his opinion on anything that wasn't underground abundantly clear when he had the city intentionally sell off plots of the old Richview Expressway ROW in Etobicoke as a deliberate act of sabotage to ensure the Crosstown West could never be built at grade or elevated in Etobicoke. Or how about his constant acusations that the SLRT would interrupt traffic eventhough it would have used the same ROW the SRT does? He had no interest in anything that wasn't underground and out of sight. So yes it would be grade seperated but at an inflated cost just so we could construct a tunnel under a 6 lane stroad just as we are now forced to do in Etobicoke because of Ford.

B-D extension - cancelled. not needed as the combined Eglinton-Scarborough LRT would have served the purposed.

Now here's the statement that really raised my dander because of how detached from reality it is. Rob Ford made it abundantly clear that Scarborough deserved a Subway; it was literally one of the central pillars of his whole term in office. Ford despised the Crosstown, and he despised the SLRT because he believed it would clog up traffic. Now of course we all know that is a load of crap but that's not how he saw it, and not how he sold it. There was going to be no compromise on this issue as Ford had the backing of essentially every suburban councillor on it and people like Ford and DeBaermaker would not let it go. Yes I know this idea was proposed and it was soundly rejected by Ford and his supporters. Even after Ford died did the SLRT plan come back? No it didn't. Was there any serious discussion about a merged EC and SRT? No there wasn't, Why? Because Ford promised Scarborough a subway, and Scarborough was going to get that subway come hell or high water. It doesn't matter what alternative was proposed, Scarborough was not going to budge and Ford had so successfully poisoned the well on LRT's that the other suburban councillors fell in line on this. Scarborough was going to get its subway, there is no compromise, there is no alternative, there is no nothing, the SSE is all there was ever going to be and the City and Metrolinx would spend the next 10 years bending over backwards to justify it. To put a final point on this, when the EC and FW projects were restored in 2012, do you know what wasn't included? The SLRT or any sort of merger with the EC because retaining the SSE was the only way to get the 10 Pro-Subway councillors in Scarborough to agree to the proposal. With that combined with the 12 Pro-LRT downtown councillors it would only be necessary to pull a vote or two from York and East York who benefit from the EC to pass the proposal regardless of Ford thought (although I don't remember exactly how that vote went down). The point is regardless of how the exact vote went down in order to restore the EC and FW City Council had to compromise and give Scarborough the SSE, without it nothing would have been built. No EC, No FW, and No SSE.

I don't know how you can paint Rob as some kind of big brained transit planner with a better understanding of the city's needs then anyone else at City Hall or the TTC when his 4 years in office are arguably the worst since the Harris years. We can argue whether or not Doug has been a blessing for transit expansion not seen since Bill Davis was in office, but Rob was not. His plan was simply subways or nothing. We can poke holes in Millers Transit City but it had a far stronger foundation underneath it then just lets put everything underground with the most expensive technology and do it on corridors that can't support it and wont for a century; especially in a Province that refuses to help pay for the daily operations of these new lines. When we live in a Province that refuses to subsidize transit operations we have to be smarter about what we build and where we build it in order to minimize the losses and thus minimize the burden on riders and tax payers. Public Transit shouldn't have to turn a profit but unfortunately the Province forces us to plan, build, and operate like it does.

 

[Westey]

Okay let me just pick apart a couple of things here:

Yes for a increased price because we all know that grade separation would have been entirely underground. Don't try and say it would have been elevated because Ford made his opinion on anything that wasn't underground abundantly clear when he had the city intentionally sell off plots of the old Richview Expressway ROW in Etobicoke as a deliberate act of sabotage to ensure the Crosstown West could never be built at grade or elevated in Etobicoke. Or how about his constant acusations that the SLRT would interrupt traffic eventhough it would have used the same ROW the SRT does? He had no interest in anything that wasn't underground and out of sight. So yes it would be grade seperated but at an inflated cost just so we could construct a tunnel under a 6 lane stroad just as we are now forced to do in Etobicoke because of Ford.

• Before being elected, Rob Ford wanted B-D subway extended to Scarbrough. He also wanted to cancel all LRT's.
• I recall a couple of articles about elevated transit around that time. https://nationalpost.com/posted-toronto/elevated-trains-metrolinx-offers-subway-alternative . It seemed to be an effort by the establishment to retain LRT.
• It seemed to work. Then in March 2011, there was the Ford-McGuinty MOU that said the line would be underground - with portions through the Don Valley as elevated. Would this have been from Brentcliffe to Swift - about 3km. Would it only have been a bridge over the West Don River. Would have concluded it could stay elevated to Kennedy. I am just guessing here - but I think the odds of fully underground would have been lower than fully elevated.
• For the next 6 months there was no real gripes and everyone thought this Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown was a good idea. It was left to Karen Stintz (Chair of TTC) and the rest of the TTC committee to work out some of the details.
• Around Christmas 2011, there was a revolt brewing. It turns out no progress had been made on the MOU.
• Everything for the next 6 months was all about emotion. It was all about STOP FORD. Not-so-coincidently, this was the time Fords drug use started to emerge. This was more reason to not just oppose Ford, but the entire right-wing movement. Transit was not even a consideration.
• Once they officially killed this Eglinton-Crosstown, Ford reverted back to his B-D subway extension to STC.

Now here's the statement that really raised my dander because of how detached from reality it is. Rob Ford made it abundantly clear that Scarborough deserved a Subway; it was literally one of the central pillars of his whole term in office. Ford despised the Crosstown, and he despised the SLRT because he believed it would clog up traffic. Now of course we all know that is a load of crap but that's not how he saw it, and not how he sold it. There was going to be no compromise on this issue as Ford had the backing of essentially every suburban councillor on it and people like Ford and DeBaermaker would not let it go. Yes I know this idea was proposed and it was soundly rejected by Ford and his supporters. Even after Ford died did the SLRT plan come back? No it didn't. Was there any serious discussion about a merged EC and SRT? No there wasn't, Why? Because Ford promised Scarborough a subway, and Scarborough was going to get that subway come hell or high water. It doesn't matter what alternative was proposed, Scarborough was not going to budge and Ford had so successfully poisoned the well on LRT's that the other suburban councillors fell in line on this. Scarborough was going to get its subway, there is no compromise, there is no alternative, there is no nothing, the SSE is all there was ever going to be and the City and Metrolinx would spend the next 10 years bending over backwards to justify it. To put a final point on this, when the EC and FW projects were restored in 2012, do you know what wasn't included? The SLRT or any sort of merger with the EC because retaining the SSE was the only way to get the 10 Pro-Subway councillors in Scarborough to agree to the proposal. With that combined with the 12 Pro-LRT downtown councillors it would only be necessary to pull a vote or two from York and East York who benefit from the EC to pass the proposal regardless of Ford thought (although I don't remember exactly how that vote went down). The point is regardless of how the exact vote went down in order to restore the EC and FW City Council had to compromise and give Scarborough the SSE, without it nothing would have been built. No EC, No FW, and No SSE.

I don't know how you can paint Rob as some kind of big brained transit planner with a better understanding of the city's needs then anyone else at City Hall or the TTC when his 4 years in office are arguably the worst since the Harris years. We can argue whether or not Doug has been a blessing for transit expansion not seen since Bill Davis was in office, but Rob was not. His plan was simply subways or nothing. We can poke holes in Millers Transit City but it had a far stronger foundation underneath it then just lets put everything underground with the most expensive technology and do it on corridors that can't support it and wont for a century; especially in a Province that refuses to help pay for the daily operations of these new lines. When we live in a Province that refuses to subsidize transit operations we have to be smarter about what we build and where we build it in order to minimize the losses and thus minimize the burden on riders and tax payers. Public Transit shouldn't have to turn a profit but unfortunately the Province forces us to plan, build, and operate like it does.

• This is actually the point I am most sure of - and it's why I specifically said Ford 2011.
• I admit that in 2010, before I really thought about it, I was in favour of the B-D subway extension. That's why I was so impressed with the Rob Ford compromise MOU plan. It also showed me that Ford was flexible to new ideas provided they meet the key criteria of grade-separated (although Ford didn't use fancy words like that).
• The Eglinton-Scarborough crosstown was a replacement to the B-D subway extension. It was only when the continuous ride for Scarborough was broken (by forcing transfer at Kennedy) that the B-D subway extension was back on the table. Everyone knew that Ford was right and that Scarborough getting a continuous ride became politically a requirement. A few alternative alignments were proposed, but they were just options to not chose the Ford alignment.

I highlighted one point of yours. "restore the EC and FW City Council had to compromise and give Scarborough the SSE".
Basically, the on-street Eglinton and Finch LRTs were so important to some, that they decided to build a whole new transit extension.
They saved $2 or 3B (by not grade separating Eglinton) by spending an additional $10B on the B-D extension.

 

[Westey]

No, the relief line would be further ahead than the Ontario line is now, and it could be extended like the Ontario Line is, that is just a political thing. The Finch LRT has already been improving, that's a rather negative view to think they would still be going 12km/h.

Transit City had no mention of Relief Line. The plan was Don Mills on-street from Sheppard (Finch?) to Eglinton and continue on-street to Pape Station.
(I don't recall, but I think Don Mills - Eglinton was an on-street stop, with the ECLRT station underground. I also don't recall Pape).
There was no plans to extend this southwards - either physically or from passenger capacity point of view. The plan was to dump everyone onto B-D, and then have everyone transfer at Y-B.

 

[T3G]

If you flip the concern over LRT's meeting cars at grade and thus slowing vehicular traffic, to see it as cars meeting LRT at grade and thus slowing transit operations (i.e having to stop at intersections), Ford and Mammo's concerns were quite explicitly about slow travel speeds, they just emphasized the impact a street running line would have on a different road user than you would typically emphasize.

For all the attacks on their intelligence Ford and the like endured for opposing Transit City and the viability of street-running LRT in Toronto, he sure was more right in the end than every planning and engineering "professional" who giddily cheered these farces along. Turns out just watching current operations (the downtown streetcars) gets you a clearer picture than a 1000 page business case based moreso in recollections of a Euro vacation spent riding trams than actual reality.

If 2011 Ford would have won the fight.

1. Eglinton LRT grade-separated from Mount Dennis to STC. (probably opening imminent - similar to now).
2. Finch LRT. cancelled/ppd.
3. Ontario Line - same as now.
4. Eglinton West LRT - same as now.
5. Yonge Subway - same as now.
6. B-D extension - cancelled. not needed as the combined Eglinton-Scarborough LRT would have served the purposed.
7. Possibly Sheppard Subway (to STC + Downsview) would be more advanced than what Sheppard is now. (Downsview more likely priority to compensate the West end for Finch transit cancellation).

If David Millers Transit City was successful.

1. We'd have Finch, Don Mills, Sheppard, Scarborough Malvern, Jane, Eglntion West LRT and Eglntion Central/East LRT and SRT replacement all complete.
2. All but SRT would be travelling at 12 km/h.
3. The Relief Line would still be in discussions - as since Don Mills LRT built it seems pointless to build a discontinuous stub line from Pape to City Hall.

This is some fascinating revisionism, bordering on propaganda. Especially the part about flipping Ford's concerns over LRTs slowing down traffic... yes, of course he looks good, if you completely change the entire basis on which he made his arguments!

Ford wasn't some progressive, forward thinking revolutionary who was concerned about the amount of time transit riders have to waste. He was part of the suburban, anti-transit, car owning, decision-making class who didn't like having to stop behind the streetcars, and therefore advocated for subway expansion, because subways are underground and therefore wouldn't slow him down. This is obviously an incredibly selfish and myopic viewpoint, so he framed it instead by constructing - yes, constructing, no one is giving the suburbs the shaft except for themselves - a made up downtown vs suburbs culture war, flying in the face of all known common sense and logic from around the world up to that point, suggesting that a dense downtown area deserves the same forms of high capacity transit developed for dense urban areas as sprawling suburbs with considerably less density. And a lot of otherwise intelligent and well educated people fell for this, and continue to lionize him as though he wasn't the political equivalent of a racist MAGA uncle making angry comments under Facebook posts.

It's very quaint, also, to dismiss experiences from Europe as "recollections of a Euro vacation spent riding trams". That's a pretty facile view point, one that could easily be reframed as (many, not all) Torontonians being too arrogant to accept the fact that some places do things better than we do, and we can learn from them. Funny how no one calls shenanigans when people bring up public realm refreshing, pedestrianization, or bike lanes, but when it comes to LRT that's where we draw the line and frame it as though people were riding some tourist pseudo-trolley in some mid-sized American town when they talk about their experiences in Europe.