[Thoughtless Miscreant]

What kind of station naming does London or NYC use?

London, along with the vast majority of transit systems in the world, has a unique name for every station. NYC has a lot of duplicate names and the last time I went to NYC I got lost on the subway for exactly that reason. I'm sure it's fine for locals but subways have to be designed for everyone.

I think the duplicate station names won't be a problem as long as we associate the colour of the line with the station name.

And speaking of designing for everyone, there are people out there who cannot see colours.

 

[nfitz]

London, along with the vast majority of transit systems in the world, has a unique name for every station.

London, along with the vast majority of cities outside North America, hasn't got roads on a grid system that go for miles.

In North American cities with grid system, New York is the biggest system. They duplicate names (big time!). Then comes Chicago - and they duplicate names; on the Blue lines there's some station names used twice for 2 different stations. Then comes Washington, which is a bit larger than Toronto - though not as large as Toronto will be once Eglinton and Spadina are built; and they haven't duplicated names.

Either we duplicate names, or we start hyphenating. Anything else is going to create havoc.

So Leslie could be Leslie-Eglinton. Victoria Park could be Victoria Park-Eglinton and Victoria Park-Sheppard. Warden can be Warden-Eglinton and Warden-Sheppard.

 

[Dan416]

nfitz, which do you think is better, duplicate names or hyphenation?

 

[Filip]

I would just name stops after the immediate neighbourhood or some sort of local landmark. I know this may be difficult given the suburban nature of some of the extensions, but I'd rather see "Science Centre" or simply "Science" as the name for Don Mills-Eglinton, Eglinton-Dufferin could be "Fairbank" (its immediate neighbourhood), one of the more easterly stops on Sheppard could be "Tam O' Shanter" after the nabe and so on so forth.

I always found Tam O' Shanter to be one of the most ridiculously awkward names in Toronto, not sure if a subway stop named that would elicit the same amount of laughs from me...

-- I don't see how this would create confusion. You look at a map of where you want to go, you see the stop name and you get off there. That's how it's done in hundreds of other cities in the world that don't name their subway stations after cross streets. Madrid's subway names are almost all the neighbourhoods they serve or local landmarks. I would love to see the DRL names incorporate the landmarks and not cross streets. Instead of Jarvis we should have 'St Lawrence', instead of Mill St we should have 'Distillery', if John St is a stop, it should be hyphenated with CN Tower, as is the nearest subway stop to the Eiffel Tower in Paris.

 

[nfitz]

-- I don't see how this would create confusion. You look at a map of where you want to go, you see the stop name and you get off there.

I've been using the Yonge line for decades, and still struggle to remember which stops St. Andrew, St. Patrick, and Osgoode are. It's only after living near downtown for several years straight, that I'm finally starting to remember. If we didn't have a grid system, then the whole neighbourhood thing might work ... but the grid system just overwhelms us. Even now, I'm not sure I've got straight which GO Station is Scarborough.

 

[Filip]

I've been using the Yonge line for decades, and still struggle to remember which stops St. Andrew, St. Patrick, and Osgoode are. It's only after living near downtown for several years straight, that I'm finally starting to remember. If we didn't have a grid system, then the whole neighbourhood thing might work ... but the grid system just overwhelms us. Even now, I'm not sure I've got straight which GO Station is Scarborough.

The cross street is listed underneath the station name. Even on maps the intersection is outlined beneath the station (or rather its address), still, I don't think this would cause the mass confusion you think it would. If it wasn't for the rather ingenious naming conventions for the University line, my favourite station name, Queen's Park, might have been called College West... *Shudder*

 

[nfitz]

The cross street is listed underneath the station name.

And thank the gods for that. It isn't listed on many subway maps though ... but for years I'd figure out what I wanted by comparing to the matching station on Yonge. Got it straight now ...

Even on maps the intersection is outlined beneath the station (or rather its address)

Not on the one on the TTC site. And that's relatively recent on the trains.

If it wasn't for the rather ingenious naming conventions for the University line, my favourite station name, Queen's Park, might have been called College West... *Shudder*

Queen's Park is on Queen's Park Crescent ... and it's the only subway station on Queen's Park Crescent. No problem there.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

In North American cities with grid system, New York is the biggest system. They duplicate names (big time!). Then comes Chicago - and they duplicate names; on the Blue lines there's some station names used twice for 2 different stations.

Chicago's grid has an all encompassing co-ordinate system which they use to differentiate identically named stations. Toronto has nothing of the sort. Aside from those two systems I can't think of any transit systems which use duplicate names.

And thank the gods for that. It isn't listed on many subway maps though ... but for years I'd figure out what I wanted by comparing to the matching station on Yonge. Got it straight now ...

Not on the one on the TTC site. And that's relatively recent on the trains.

The cross-streets should be on maps, in stations, and probably even announced in the trains themselves. But they aren't strictly necessary for navigation in every case. I doubt anyone has ever gotten lost as a result of Rosedale not being called "Crescent"

Queen's Park is on Queen's Park Crescent ... and it's the only subway station on Queen's Park Crescent. No problem there.

Museum is on Queen's Park Crescent.

 

[gweed123]

One possibility too is when we get the automated "next station" prompts (both visual and auditory), one way to avoid confusion would be to have the prompt read or say "Next Station: Osgoode Station, Queen Street West at University Avenue", or "Next Station: Science Centre Station, Eglinton Avenue East at Don Mills Rd, exit here for Ontario Science Centre". Listing both streets would come in particularly handy for lines that don't necessarily travel under the same street for their entire length (ex: the Spadina line).

Side note: Adding in major tourist attractions into those prompts may also help too. "Exit here for Casa Loma". It may also help locals learn where some of these spots are too .

 

[DavidH]

Museum is on Queen's Park Crescent.

Your larger point is correct that both Museum and Queen's Park stations are actually on the same named street (or at least, the northern exits of Queen's Park station is).

However, that street is NOT Queen's Park Crescent. It's simply called "Queen's Park". The "Crescent" name only applies to those portions of the road that form the traffic circle around the actual Queen's Park. The rest is simply "Queen's Park" with no suffixes.

For proof, see the ROM's contact address on this page:

http://www.rom.on.ca/about/contact.php

Having said that, I'd argue that Queen's Park subway station isn't named for the road, but for the park and for the common name for the provincial legislature.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

Okay well six of one, half dozen of the other. There are still two stations on something called Queen's Park.

 

[nfitz]

Museum is on Queen's Park Crescent.

Ah, your right. I always thought that was Avenue Road from the circle north to Bloor; but it is Avenue Road. Never knew that

I guess Queens Park and Museum are so prominent that the stations make sense. Osgoode Hall is relatively prominent, but hidden behind locked gates and trees, so never seems as important - Opera House might be a better name today. St. Patrick street is a bit of a walk from St. Patrick station ... and also runs as close to Osgoode station. It's supposed to be named for St. Patrick church on McCaul street ... but that's even further away ... and quite frankly very forgettable. I'd think it would be more appropriate to call it Art Gallery these days ... or is it the old ward or parish that hasn't existed for years.

St. Andrew is named for St. Andrew's church on King/Simcoe street - almost as forgettable - though at least closer and a significant structure.

I'm not suggesting we should change the names at this point ... just that until I became very familiar with that part of Toronto, I never could keep them straight.

 

[Dan416]

One possibility too is when we get the automated "next station" prompts (both visual and auditory), one way to avoid confusion would be to have the prompt read or say "Next Station: Osgoode Station, Queen Street West at University Avenue", or "Next Station: Science Centre Station, Eglinton Avenue East at Don Mills Rd, exit here for Ontario Science Centre". Listing both streets would come in particularly handy for lines that don't necessarily travel under the same street for their entire length (ex: the Spadina line).

Side note: Adding in major tourist attractions into those prompts may also help too. "Exit here for Casa Loma". It may also help locals learn where some of these spots are too .

That would be great. The London Underground does this. It's helpful.

 

[Johnny Au]

How about numbering the lines to the public? The lines are already numbered (1 being YUS, 2 being BD, 3 being SRT (and the Crosstown as well), and 4 being Sheppard). For example, Victoria Park station can be called Victoria Park (2) for the one on Bloor-Danforth, Victoria Park (3) for the one on Eglinton, and Victoria Park (4) for the one on Sheppard? However, there will be a problem for some who will realize that there is no Victoria Park (1) station.

Alternatively, how about numbering each station? However, there will be a problem with extensions.

I am just bringing up suggestions.

 

[gweed123]

How about numbering the lines to the public? The lines are already numbered (1 being YUS, 2 being BD, 3 being SRT (and the Crosstown as well), and 4 being Sheppard). For example, Victoria Park station can be called Victoria Park (2) for the one on Bloor-Danforth, Victoria Park (3) for the one on Eglinton, and Victoria Park (4) for the one on Sheppard? However, there will be a problem for some who will realize that there is no Victoria Park (1) station.

Alternatively, how about numbering each station? However, there will be a problem with extensions.

I am just bringing up suggestions.

If we were going to number each line, I would like to see a Berlin-style prefix added in front of each line, to tell you what kind of line it is. I would go with E for Express Rail (Electrified GO network), S for Subway, L for LRT, and B for BRT. So the Lakeshore line would be E1, with the YUS subway being S1. At least with that you can gather immediately what network you're talking about, and know the characteristics of that network.