BurlOak
Senior Member
Are the LRT cars already ordered?
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Are the LRT cars already ordered?
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Yes, the LRT cars are already ordered and brilliantly they are completely different from the LRT cars ordered for the city routes and are being built to run on a different gauge of track than the current streetcar and subway network. The Eglinton vehicles will only work on the Eglinton line and no other existing TTC vehicles will be able to run on the new line. This means that even maintenance vehicles the TTC owns currently will not be able to service the new tunnels. They could have used the same gauge which would have given them the operational flexibility to use some of the maintenance vehicles they already have and allow city LRTs to supplement service when required. They could have used high platform LRTs to allow a more easy migration to subway and reduce costs but instead low floor LRTs are being used even though there will be zero benefit to being close to the ground since there will be no on street platforms. We are setting things up for maximum inflexibility with what we already have. With the TTC operating the only LRT / subway network in the GTA they could have made TTC gauge the GTA gauge and since the same factory that makes TTC gauge subways and TTC gauge city LRTs is most likely to build the other vehicles made for the GTA, the quantities ordered by the TTC would outweigh the numbers purchased by other systems in Ontario, and the GTA transit agencies typically don't buy any used equipment and use their equipment until they are at the end of their service life there are virtually no benefits to standard gauge on Eglinton. Nothing about the end result on Eglinton makes any sense... nothing.
That said, tracks aren't laid yet and the company that makes the LRTs is the same company that makes the subways so if Metrolinx smartened up nd had a plan that either used LRTs as LRTs or subways as subways and attempted a deal they might be able to make one.
That said, tracks aren't laid yet and the company that makes the LRTs is the same company that makes the subways so if Metrolinx smartened up nd had a plan that either used LRTs as LRTs or subways as subways and attempted a deal they might be able to make one.
jeffreym
Active Member
Well currently vehicle deliveries are scheduled to begin just less than a year from now... the Sheppard LRT cars (along with the Finch cars) were never canceled.
JoeParez
Transit Enthusiast
Aside from all the issues of the LRT being underground and vehicles being of different gauge, what worries me about the Eglinton LRT is that the general public will make it the scapegoat for all things TTC -- maybe they'll avoid it (like Sheppard) or curse it's existence (like St. Clair), when in fact its a rapid transit line that's been needed for a while.
js97
Senior Member
Exactly. I sometimes wonder why they do that. My cynical side wants to think it's intentional union job creation. It could be political. The whole, appease the 'subway' enthutiast by putting in infrastructure to have 'subways' in the future (which will never happen when it's above ground) but still maintain the LRT /street car image.
Partisan politics... ugh
I also don't understand why they can't have part of the 'subway' above ground and part below. The yonge line is surfaced as downtown as rosedale/davisville/st.clair stations.
They can easitly go above ground from laid then back down after passing hte don valley, before that hill by Victoria Park.
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js97
Senior Member
Have you taken the shepperd subway lately? I find that 'transit' enthusiasts generally live within the old city limits and rarely venture out to the inner burbs. Shepperd and Donmills station have become a traffic 'hub'.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
FWIW the Eglinton line was already the 4'th most expensive project in Canada before Ford put it all underground. So it's not like we've taken a $5 steak sub, and turned it into a $200 kobe beef filiet mignon.
IIRC the original plan was still going to cost in the neighborhood of $4-6 Billion.
***Edit***
Also in reply to JS97 and EnviroTO. Pittsburgh's Streetcars actually have dual doors. Low floor doors for boarding at smaller "on street" stops, much like our current streetcars and planned LRT and... High floor doors for major controlled access stations such as transfer points, busy stations, but also the portion of their network that runs underground like a subway. This may have been the solution for Eglinton.
IIRC the original plan was still going to cost in the neighborhood of $4-6 Billion.
***Edit***
Also in reply to JS97 and EnviroTO. Pittsburgh's Streetcars actually have dual doors. Low floor doors for boarding at smaller "on street" stops, much like our current streetcars and planned LRT and... High floor doors for major controlled access stations such as transfer points, busy stations, but also the portion of their network that runs underground like a subway. This may have been the solution for Eglinton.
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smallspy
Senior Member
As has been covered many times here before, the Transit City cars have more than enough differences besides the track gauge to make them incompatible with the rest of the existing network. And the system itself is different enough to preclude using the legacy system cars on it.
In the case of high-rail vehicles, that is not true. For other equipment you are right, but then again the TTC likely won't need things like tampers and tie replacement equipment on the Eglinton Line. And the rail grinders which they rent are multi-gauge-capable, so won't be an issue.
Was any potential savings from being able to use existing maintenance equipment - for which there will be no rail connection anyways - really worth the potential additional expense of going with non-standard revenue vehicles? Shouldn't the revenue vehicles dictate the maintenance equipment and not the other way around?
If you look at the current Eglinton Line independent of any previous plans, than yes, you are correct. Taken in the context of the whole Transit City system, however, high-floor platforms and cars are a non-starter for a variety of reasons.
Again, context. They are still migrating from the old plan to a new one - which will also include redoing the EA for east of Brentcliffe (at the very least). If they decide to go back to the original EA concept, with surface running east of Brentcliffe, all of a sudden those vehicles wouldn't look so out of place, would they?
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I am sure that Rob Ford will be blamed for all decisions related to the Eglinton LRT. I think the change to fully grade seperated was made early enough that different vehicles could have been ordered.
I imagine that Ford does know the difference between low floor LRT, ICTS or HRT, nor should he. What Ford wanted was underground transit across Eglinton. This is a political decision - right or wrong, many people voted this way. I believe it is was assumed that side-of-road, or trenched construction is acceptable since it already exsits on YUS and B-D - what he really wanted was a seperated transit line. The choice of vehicle is a technical issue that Metrolinx and TTC are resposible for determining. I don't think Ford needs to get involved in thses technical issues. I hope he does not need to decide the tunnel wall thickness or amount of steel reinforcement.
It appears that Metrolinx and TTC are ignoring the underground LRT, assuming it will never get built. They believe that Ford will be gone in 3 years time and then they can revert back to Transit City. However, if Ford wins again, or if they can't delay the EA process for Eglinton East, we will be stuck with the wrong type of transit.
JoeParez
Transit Enthusiast
Well I live in Woodbridge and have been on the Sheppard Subway once when I went to see my mom, she works at Bayview and Cummer and I was already downtown. So no, I haven't really been on it, but just by reading message boards and blogs, it seems that outside of the rush hour that the Sheppard line is a ghost town aside from the two stations you mentioned.
nfitz
Superstar
I used to use Leslie semi-regularly off-peak. It's not the busiest station on the line, but I've never been the only one on the platform. I certainly wouldn't call it a ghost town.
Paleo
Active Member
Rob Ford happened.
As for gauge, I think standard gauge for GTA LRT systems is the way to go because it leaves the door open for running on the numerous rail ROWs if they ever modernize the rules.
11th
Senior Member
Depends which camp you're on, one can also blame the previous administration for pulling the trigger on the vehicle order; everything seem rushed through.
Dan416
Senior Member
My only qualm with using LRVs on Eglinton is that they cost more than subway rolling stock. Other than that I don't care, since it's all underground anyway.
Rainforest
Senior Member
First of all, people did not vote for underground Eglinton transit, or Sheppard, or any other specific transit project. The majority of Ford's supporters voted for him because he promised to freeze or cut taxes. If Ford was an LRT proponent and at the same time campaigned on the tax-cutting platform, he would get approximately same number of votes.
Secondly, Metrolinx is in a rather difficult position regarding Eglinton. The probability that Ford will be gone in 3 years is actually very high. If the next administration returns to the Transit City concepts even partially, then some segments of Eglinton will be built at-grade. Hence, the risk of selecting another vehicle type is greater (can't run on at-grade segments and must be changed once again) than the risk of sticking to low-floor LRT vehicles (not optimal for a fully separated line, but at least can operate it).